What are you doing?

Oh, hello god ... just thinking and enjoying the view.

It is amazing huh?

Beyond that ... you just cannot believe so much intricate beauty could be poured into one place!

... it is the power of devotion.

You can understand how people feel so much closer ... to god here.

You can, it has been designed with that very purpose in mind. This one was originally built in the 14^th Century, but was largely re-built twice after two fires during the 16^th and 18^th centuries.

And still there is so much love lavished in every brush stroke, each chip of stone and carving of wood?

Wouldn't you if you believed your path to eternal life was being earned with each stroke?

Hadn't thought of it like that.

Don't suppose you did, what's on your mind?

Well ... it's just that, that you would have me believe it was all for nothing?

All what?

This! 2000 years of worship and faith apparently ... all for nothing!

Would I?

That is the impression I have!

Perhaps that is just your mind coming to an inevitable conclusion?

What do you mean?

Your mind must have been asking some questions for us to begin speaking ...

And I still have many ...

Have we not reasoned answers together?

We have, and I feel like these answers are drawing me away from who I am!

Or towards what you really are!

But this, all this feels like me!

So when was the last time you came here?

Urmmn ... after Liverpool won the Milk Cup against Tottenham.

Ahh yes I remember. That prayer in the conservatory next to the radio and that last minute goal!

You remember that ... ?

Of course, and that was how long ago?

I would guess about twenty five years.

At least ... so you probably would not claim to be an active follower of this faith?

Well ... no. But I think about it a lot ...

... I know you do.

It's just that ... just that it's the very foundation of our culture, the history. It is part of me and it runs deep.

And after our first two conversations you are now finding it hard to let go ...

Very hard. It is difficult to step away from, to discount and then say: 'what do I believe in?'

And there are very good reasons for that my friend ...

Are there?

Yes ... because you are right. It is part of you, part of your sense of self. And this is derived from your mind's grounding in who you are, which was largely formed during early childhood.

I remember ... every day; hymns, prayers, giving thanks, every year; harvest festivals, Easter, nativity, Adam and Eve ... Noah, Jonah.

But as an adult it is your minds desire for answers that drew us to these conversations ...

It was ... I have had enough of the uncertainty, the moral guilt.

So my friend ... does this mind of yours now think it likely man was created by a supernatural being or through millions of years of evolution?

... evolution.

Does your mind now consider the stories of the Old Testament to be the literal word of a supernatural god tracing the fortunes of his chosen people?

... no.

Or the written history and myths of a peoples that had no concept of how the world around them functioned, a hard world they explained by attributing it all to a supernatural god?

... a hard world attributed to a supernatural god.

Right ... but?

But ... where does that leave Christianity?

Where do you think?

Well this is my problem ... it is why I came here in the first place. If the Jewish god of the old testament is explained as a myth, how can Jesus be the son of god?

Now isn't that the catch 22 of all time!

It is!

So what do you think?

I could discount Christianity and just move on.

But that's not your style is it my friend ...

No ... I want to know about Christianity, whether it has validity for this hold on my sense of being.

Good ... good. So did you do as I asked last time?

You mean read Psalms and Isaiah?

Yes ...

I did.

So ... go on.

Well, I assumed you asked me to read them because they would explain Jesus the Jewish Messiah ... !

But .. ?

I couldn't find anything in Isaiah or Psalms that sounded like Jesus the messiah!

Couldn't you now ... !

No ... there were many references to the 'anointed one' but none seemed to be talking about Jesus, or anyone like Jesus.

So who are they talking about?

Well the anointed one is the King of Israel, or the messiah, is he not?

He is.

I read Matthew and Mark as well ...

... and?

They both have several passages about Jesus that sound like Psalms and Isaiah, but those passages in Psalms and Isaiah are not talking about the messiah ...

My oh my, you have been a busy little soul. So what do you think of that?

What do I think? ... I want to know how Jesus' followers come to think of him as the messiah, does Christianity have merit of its own regardless of the Old Testament?

Very good ... and where do you propose we start in this quest?

Well ... I talked to Father Santia.

Did you now, prey tell!

I thought what better place than a church to find some answers!

And here we are, how wonderfully naïve of you. Did you get your answers?

That is the problem. I talked to Father Santia and that just confused me more!

Did it, what did you ask him?

Well, first I said that I had been talking to you and you had recommended I read Isaiah and Psalms.

And he said?

I have to say he looked rather taken aback when I said how specific you were but he did say I had been directed well.

But then you said to him ....

.... then I said to him I couldn't find any reference to the Messiah as relating to Jesus in any of the two.

To which he replied ...

... that it was plain for all to see, right there in gods very own words.

Brilliant!

I left out the part where you didn't actually write the bible ...

Of course ... probably would have confused matters.

So what else did Father Santia have to say?

Well he said that Jesus was the suffering Messiah.

And when you asked him where it said that ...

... he said Isaiah and Psalms.

So now what do you think?

That there is a lot of suffering in all the Old Testament but nothing when predicting the future messiah that sounds anything like Jesus!

And when you mentioned this to him ...

... he told me I was thinking too much and looking too hard. That god's will was not to reason but to accept ...

... and that you should relinquish to the will of god and glory in your faith, to believe and not think.

Well ... yes, that's almost exactly what he said. How did you know ... ?

You need to ask?

Oh yeah, forgot about that!

So is not thinking, not reasoning and just accepting all this as a truth, an option?

Not for me.

So my friend ... if we are going to understand how a Jewish Rabbi and convicted criminal that was crucified for his crime, somehow become the 'messiah' and linchpin for a religion that would shape culture for nearly half the world for two thousand years ...

Yes .... ?

Then we need to start with something fundamental, simple.

Like ... ?

... like if you want to understand the origins of Christianity, you better start with understanding where the word Christ came from?

Urrmnmm ... god?

Ha ha ... funny!

What do you mean then?

The term Jesus Christ would have meant very little to Jews in the time of and after Jesus.

Really?

Do you know why?

Urrmnn ... No. I don't get it ... you mean like 'Christ' wasn't a Jewish word?

That's exactly what I mean ...

So if Christ isn't a Jewish word, what is it?

The answer is pivotal to understanding the propagation of the Jesus legend – 'Christ' is a Greek word. Christos literally means 'the anointed one'.

Greek? Where does Greek come into the frame?

... let us take this step by step.

Okay.

What are we doing here?

Talking?

No I mean, why are we talking?

So that I can understand how Jesus came to be the suffering messiah?

And why might that be important?

Because it will help to explain to me how Jesus fits into what seems like a godless ancient world ...

But more importantly ... ?

Put Christianity into its proper context ...

... by understanding its history.

Cool ... so when do we start?

We have already. You know that Christianity derives its name from a Greek word ...

... so the question is: How did the purported Jewish messiah come to carry the Greek title 'Christ'?

And for that we need to look at what happened immediately after the death of Jesus.

We do?

Yes! After the death of Jesus his Jewish followers remained devoted, do you know why?

Urrmmnn Because they thought he was the messiah?

Well they would have thought he was until he died on the cross, then that would have kinda dashed their hopes, don't you think?

Well as Jews, yes. They thought Jesus was going to free them from Roman rule, not die by Roman hands.

So what else about Jesus' death do you think might have given his followers hope?

... his resurrection!

Correct. They believed he had been resurrected! And that meant he must be ...

... the messiah because god had raised him!

Well done!

So did Jesus really get resurrected then?

Who by?

Oh ...

Don't you worry too much on the how or who right now. We will come to that a little later. For now, let us just assume that his followers believed he was resurrected ... Okay?

Okay!

So this handful of followers believed he was the messiah, which had been demonstrated through his suffering, death and his subsequent resurrection.

Really? That's a hell of a leap! Resurrection to suffering messiah?

Paying attention I see ... Jesus' followers truly believed that he had been resurrected ...

Right ...

So they started leafing through the old testament for confirmation that he was the messiah. When they found none they paralleled his suffering with the suffering of the old testament and as we know there was lots of that!

So they believed he was the suffering messiah just on that basis?

You are not thinking about this in the context of the time!

No I guess I am not!

Claims of resurrection were fairly common and were meant to demonstrate the messenger of god...

Or a demonstration of gods powers?

... exactly!

So you're saying that resurrection was a common miracle in the time and was seen as an act of god?

Not exactly common ... but thought to happen frequently enough that it was a known phenomenon.

... and as soon as they had the resurrection – Jesus touched by god and references in the Jewish texts to suffering they put two and two together and came up with the messiah!

Especially with the crucifixion suffering they found in Psalms.

But that passage in Psalms wasn't talking about the messiah, was it?

No of course not ... and crucifixion in the time was as common as jail sentences are today. At one stage the Romans even ringed Jerusalem with crucifixions and ran out of wood in doing so!

Phew – kind of makes you think.

When realising Jesus the messiah though, we also need to factor what a few Jews, in particular Jesus believed in that time.

I don't get it, we know what they believed?

You know what you have been told they believed but I doubt you have studied the gospels enough to know the main theme of Jesus' message!

Urrmnn ... go on.

The Jewish nation had been faithfully following gods law for over a thousand years but still they were suffering ...

And they didn't understand why?

No they didn't. Being human of course they began developing their theories.

Which were ... ?

A portion of Jews believed god had deserted them ...

... which was why they were suffering?

Yes. But they truly believed their god would one day return. In the process smiting all those oppressing the Jews!

And Jesus' followers believed that?

Well a version of this, yes. Like I say, it was the key message that Jesus preached. In Jesus' version, there would be an apocalyptic event wiping out all, and taking all those that remained faithful into gods own eternal Kingdom.

What ... the end is nigh and all that?

Yes. In fact Jesus believed that god would come and reclaim his people, within his own lifetime.

How do you know that?

Because it is written in the gospels on multiple occasions.

Is it?

Yes. You simply understand it today as eternal life in gods kingdom after death because of course god never came to claim his people in anyone's lifetime, so the prophecy eventually changed.

Wow! And that's in the Bible.

In the Gospels ...

So that explains why his followers would really buy into the resurrection!

Go on ...

Because Jesus like the Jewish nation had suffered on the cross, god had forsaken him on the cross and then resurrected him ...

Gathering Jesus into his eternal kingdom.

Oh my word ... so they would have totally believed.

Absolutely.

So ... what happened next?

What do you think happened?

I suppose they tried to spread the word of the suffering messiah amongst the Jewish community as a whole?

And you would have thought the Jewish nation would have accepted this with open arms?

Well yes ... based on the message Jesus preached they had their messiah!

But the problem is of course, Jesus wasn't an orthodox Jewish rabbi, so his teachings were at odds with the establishment and majority of the time.

So his followers and their message of the suffering messiah was universally rejected.

Of course ... like I said he was not in any way representative of what the Jews were expecting as a messiah ...

... only he was the messiah to a handful of Jews that interpreted his death and perceived resurrection as a fulfilling of Jesus' own preachings!

Exactly ... contrary to popular belief this was not a world where this one event took everyone by storm. There were groups of people everywhere coming up with theories and solutions to the ongoing suffering, many claimed to be the messiah.

And Jesus was one of them ...

Yes ...

So how come the message of Jesus become universally accepted then?

What do you think these devoted followers did?

Tried to find someone that would believe them?

They sure did. They migrated, spreading out while passing on the story of Jesus.

So who did these Jesus followers convert then?

Well, who do you think might have listened and found the stories of Jesus compelling?

Not Jews.

Like I say, not in the main, no.

So who ... ?

Do you know what a Pagan was in the time of Jesus?

Urrmnn ... a heathen?

Oh how history favours those that write it. The word pagan, despite the modern derogatory forms, used to simply mean someone that wasn't Christian.

I never knew that!

It is actually a turn on the Jewish word: 'Gentile' which simply means not Jewish.

Crikey ...

So a pagan was simply someone that wasn't Jewish or Christian. Pretty much everyone was pagan and that would include the Romans.

So you're saying the beliefs of early Christians were rejected by Jews so the followers spread out and started to convert gentiles ...

... to be more specific, Pagans.

Wow ...

And why do you think Pagans would have converted more readily than Jews?

I suppose they didn't have a defined concept of the messiah, so the story of Jesus the suffering messiah would have seemed perfectly plausible?

And the key to believing the whole messiah thing ...

... was the expected apocalyptic return of god and the resurrection of Jesus demonstrating eternal life. People believed.

You bet they did, especially the eternal life bit - who wants to die!

No one I suppose.

So how do you think the stories of Jesus spread as far as they did?

Well I imagine some people would have written them down and others would have passed them on through word of mouth?

Do you know how many people were literate in that time?

Urmn – not many?

Probably one in ten, more likely closer to one in fifteen.

Right!

So when was the printing press invented?

16^th century ...

Which means that any written word, on the rare occasions people actually could write them down, was spread by?

Jees! You don't think of these things? I suppose they must have copied each one by hand.

Yes ... right up to the invention of the printing press one thousand five hundred years later!

So then, how do you think the Jesus stories primarily spread during the 100 years following his death?

Word of mouth, oral traditions?

You bet they did. Initially propagated by his followers to anyone that would listen.

Who were Pagans.

Correct. Converts would be wives, businessman or traders visiting a town. They would hear the stories and then return to their home villages and relay these to their wives, families, and friends. Who would then pass them onto their husbands, who would then pass them onto fellow travellers.

Oh my word!

And what do we know about stories told through oral traditions?

That they change!

They certainly do.

Now then ... pay attention as this is the interesting bit!

This isn't already interesting?

I mean really interesting!

Cool ...

So ...

... yes god?

During the 100 years after Jesus died we gradually start to see a number of Christian writings.

Such as the Gospels ...

Nope ... the gospels were actually some of the later writings as people already had the word of mouth stories, the earliest writings were interpretations of Jesus' message ...

Such as Paul?

Yes, probably about twenty years after the death of Jesus. The gospels followed some time later but within the 100 years.

So why didn't they start by writing down the gospels?

They didn't need to, it wasn't until different interpretations of the Jesus message started to appear that people started writing about Jesus to substantiate what they believed!

Oh wow ..

And getting to the point ... what language were the early Christian writings written in?

I am assuming the point to this must be that they were written in Greek?

Hallelujah!

Do you know why Greek?

Urrmmn ... they were written in Greece?

Funny!

I wasn't joking!

I know, now pay attention. The reason these early writings were in Greek goes back to the 4^th Century BC and Alexander the Great.

It does?

Yes. Alexander was a legendary Greek king that conquered much of Asia. As a result we subsequently had centuries of Greek settlement and cultural influence over a very wide area around ancient Palestine.

So you're saying that many Pagans would have been Greek educated?

Exactly. Christian followers appeared over a wide area by the nature of the message ...

... oral traditions passed on through traders and businessmen.

And these same Greek speaking pagans would have been early converts, and of course when they did write their Jesus stories they did so in Greek!

The book of the Jewish messiah written in Greek? It just doesn't sound right, how can you be so sure it wasn't originally written by Jews?

Because the language used to write the gospels was unequivocally Greek!

Well that's like Father Santia telling me Jesus was unequivocally the messiah. How do you actually know?

You can tell the difference between English and German can't you?

Yes, of course!

So ... Greek!

But how do you know what you're reading isn't Aramaic translated into Greek!

Because written vocabulary was a lot less expansive then than it is now. Greek translated from Aramaic would simply read different than a document originally written in Greek, which is what we have with the texts, specifically the Gospels.

Oh ...

... but that is not the only evidence!

It is not?

The gospels are the only books in the New testament that actually discuss the life and preaching of Jesus ...

They are?

Yes ... and the gospels describe a Jewish world.

As you would expect ... Jesus being Jewish.

But you ask any Jew about the traditions and Jewish life described in the gospels and they would point out a whole bunch of errors.

They would?

Yes ... if the gospels were written by Jews or even via Jewish eye witnesses you would expect the detail of Jewish customs to be correct!

But they are not, because they were not written by Jews ...

And then of course we have textual analysis ...

We do?

Yes. If I gave you a book written by Stephen King how would you tell me when it was written?

Because it says so on the inside?

Mmnnn smart arse! What else would tell you when it was written?

Urrmnn ... references in the text to society, history and events?

Excellent ... and?

And what was culturally acceptable, within the framework of the story?

Good man .. and?

... I don't know, what?

The writing style!

Oh ... !

If I was to hand you a book by Charles Dickens you could glean a great deal of information about the time, the culture and social nuances, yes?

Yes, that's for sure.

So then ... over time societies evolve as do the tools of culture such as writing and its constructs. We compare Dickens with ...

... late twentieth century authors and a whole lot has changed?

Absolutely. The world the characters live in is different. Society, customs, references to past events and then we have the writing style. Sentence structure, paragraphs.

All that and they can tell who and when?

Well not just with two books, but by cross referencing all the materials we have between the two times you can build up a fairly accurate timeline.

... so you're point is?

The point is that modern scholars use these techniques to determine where and when the texts of the New Testament were written.

... and the language used in books such as the gospels places them as Greek.

Yup, language and writing style!

Okay ... so when were the gospels written?

Mark is judged to be the first Gospel written sometime between 65-70 AD

70 years after Jesus died?

No ... ! AD means 'In the year of the lord' It supposedly dates from the birth of Jesus, but is almost certainly wrong. Jesus was probably born in 4BC!

... that's funny.

It is. So he would have died about 30AD.

Which makes Mark written at least thirty five years after the death of Jesus?

That's a long time for stories to be passed via word of mouth don't you think?

Sure is. When was Matthew written then?

Matthew and Luke were probably written at the same time as each other, albeit separately, which was likely about 80-85AD.

Fifty years after Jesus died and twenty after Mark!

And John probably about 95AD.

Wow!

And what should seem obvious to you now you know this?

What, now I know the gospels were written in Greek between thirty and seventy years after Jesus died?

Yes .... ?

Urrmnn ... that, well ... I guess it would have been unlikely that they were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.

Why?

Well apart from the fact that they would have been old for that time, even by the time Mark was written, they were Jewish. Which means gospels would have been written in their first language: Aramaic?

And these were written in Greek!

You say so ...

I do say so ... and I think you're right there with me!

Almost. ... so what if Mark dictated his gospel to a Greek speaker.

Possible I suppose. But if these gospels were written by who they say they were, you think that they would use their name as some indication of authenticity ... wouldn't you?

I suppose ...

Mark was Peter's secretary but never states he wrote the Gospel via the testament of the first hand witness Peter. While Matthew never declares himself an eyewitness and talks about Matthew in the third person, always as if he is describing another person.

... because Matthew was another person because he never wrote the gospel?

Correct. Nor would you expect Matthew, who was with Jesus for most of his preaching days, to require copying a gospel allegedly written by Mark to detail the preaching of Jesus?

Matthew copied Mark?

Yup and Luke ... !

Matthew copied Luke as well ?

No! Luke and Matthew were both written independently but copied chunks right out of Mark and probably one other source nobody has ever found!

So what do we call the gospels now then?

Nobody knows who wrote them, so there is really no point in calling them anything other than Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, is there!

I guess not. So is all this, the gospels, the New Testament a lie?

No, no my friend ... The books that comprise the new testament, just like the old testament were written by people that really believed.

... so whoever wrote Matthew and Luke would have done so with the utter conviction that their belief was total and correct!

Yes .. and as I said to affirm what they believed about Jesus, confirming him as the suffering messiah ...

... which takes us right back to the beginning - Isaiah and Psalms.

Exactly ... justifying Jesus as the messiah has always been the biggest problem for Christianity. Absolutely nobody other than Christians have ever thought he was the messiah.

So early Christian authors set about confirming Jesus the messiah in their own writings!

And how do you think they did that?

Like those that preceded them I guess they spent endless hours leafing through the Old Testament for evidence that Jesus was the messiah?

And ...

When they found none, but totally convinced that he was the messiah they started looking for parallels ... such as the crucifixion in Psalms.

Excellent! And then they started pulling prophecies for the messiah from the Old Testament and layered them into their own gospels.

As well?

Yes ... and they used the David prophecies especially.

David being the last person Judaism collectively acknowledged as the messiah?

Absolutely. Who ever wrote the Matthew gospel didn't waste any time either. Starting the gospel by actually tracing Jesus' genealogy back to David through Joseph ...

Crikey ... that must have been a long list. Wasn't David supposed to have lived about 1000 years earlier?

Yes he was. Can you imagine tracing your family line back 1000 years today, with modern records?

No ... mum tried. I think she got back about six generations – just over 200 years.

Matthew tells us there are fourteen generations in the 1000 years of lineage since David, the number fourteen being another David prophecy. In the process he actually only lists thirteen.

I didn't even notice ...

... probably because like most people you didn't read it properly.

Well I ....

Don't worry it's what you have been conditioned to do. It is what Father Santia there is employed to do ...

You mean tell me what to think so I don't need to.

Precisely.

What I don't understand is, why would they trace Joseph's lineage back to David if Jesus wasn't actually his son?

It kinda makes the whole genealogy redundant huh?

So what do you think Matthews point was?

To simply create another link to David, even if it was through Joseph.

Well done.

That's it?

Like I said, the gospels were written to affirm Jesus' message and that he was the messiah, Matthew and Luke more so than the others set out to do this.

What else is there then?

Literally too many to cover in the time we have, so we can look at some of those in the nativity story if you want?

Cool ...

So we also have Jesus being born in Bethlehem, the guiding star, the massacring of all children ...

The star of Bethlehem wasn't real?

You mean a roving star in the sky that directed the wise men directly to the crib of Jesus?

Mmnnn ... I guess that does sound unlikely?

Can you tell me how many written sources of the time detail the star and the journey of the wise men, considering a roving star must have been fairly widely recorded?

At least the four gospels I would guess?

Guess again ... Matthew is the only writing in ancient history that describes the wise men or the star ...

Wow ...

And of the many studies of the stars we have from the time, there are none that detail anything like the star of Bethlehem, not even a convenient comet.

Is the star significant then?

Of course ... the star is another David prophecy from the Old Testament.

And further evidence Luke and Matthew were written independently, otherwise you would think they might have confirmed stories.

You would have thought ...

I suppose the massacring of children is mythical as well - a link to Moses and an echo of other legends like Jason and the Argonauts.

Keep going ...

So ... even Jesus being born in Bethlehem is up for debate?

Jesus' birth is only detailed in two of the gospels, Luke and Matthew. The others start with him as an adult. Jesus being born in Bethlehem is about the only thing Luke and Matthew agree on towards the beginning of their gospels.

And they had Jesus born in Bethlehem because it was the city of David?

Interesting huh?

You can say that again. So where was Jesus really born?

Where do you think?

I don't know!

So what was Jesus's last name?

Christ?

Funny!! He wasn't just called Jesus before someone thought up Christ was he!

Oh ... Nazareth. Jesus of Nazareth.

Right ... so there is your answer.

What ... ?

Jesus was very probably born in Nazareth, that would be why he was called Jesus of Nazareth and not Jesus of Bethlehem!

Oh ... hadn't thought of it like that!

So how do you feel about the Jesus legend now ... ?

A little confused ... ?

It's not surprising ... but you have enough detail now with which to begin reasoning your own conclusions?

I think so ..

You only think ... !

It's a lot to take in!

So what was the message of Jesus?

That god had forsaken the Jewish people but would be back avenging, only those that submitted to the will of god would survive in gods eternal kingdom!

Excellent ... and when his followers thought he had been resurrected?

They truly believed he must be the messiah and began spreading the word.

But their word was largely rejected ... ?

... because most Jews didn't see the messiah as someone that would suffer or die on the cross.

Jews were looking for a David or Moses like character, so ... ?

So the followers of Jesus spread out, migrated and found believers in Pagans who found the stories easier to believe ...

... because the had no real concept for who the messiah was supposed to be, so accepted it as the truth.

And the stories travelled ...

... via word of mouth, changing in the process, which meant after some thirty to fifty years there were many different interpretations ...

So the early Christians started writing down their version of Jesus' life and preachings ...

... to affirm?

Their particular belief and an opportunity to confirm him as the messiah, by weaving lots of back references to the Old Testament messiah.

But in the process ...

.. because they were written independently, at different times these confirmations as Jesus the messiah are inconsistent.

Often telling the same story differently, or not at all ...

... or detailing reasons for messiah events that we now know they just made up.

Not as a conspiracy ...

... but out of utter faith for something they totally believed in!

There you go, not that confusing huh?

So basically the New Testament gospels have evolved just like any other story man has to tell. It is just that for two thousand years people have been believing this as a truth!

As the word of god, in fact. Can you imagine a god would get something so muddled ... ?

... no ... only humans.

So you can see the whole bible now for what it really is ...

... mankind trying to explain that which they did not comprehend.

Right ... which makes it a remarkable snapshot of the minds and people in their time ...

But I suppose stunning that people still think these as valid explanations for life and god, to actually be gods very word ...

When they were written by people who knew very little about the world around them ...

But apparently had a hotline to a god ...

... who since seems to have vacated premises earth!

I am exhausted ...

Really ... I'm just getting warmed up. But you are right ...

Right ... ?

We do need to finish up.

But ... ?

There is one last thing that we need to look at right now.

There is?

Yes ...

... I suppose you're now going to explain why Christianity still appeals to so many.

Well ... I think we should look at one critical question.

Which is ?

Ignoring everything we know about the migration of Jesus stories away from ancient Palestine, the origins of Christianity, the suffering messiah, oral traditions, the contradictory gospels and layering of messiah links ...

... there is still the question of the resurrection!

See ... you're not asleep yet!

Not yet ...

The resurrection is the cornerstone of the whole Jesus legend. Without it he would have died the failed messiah at best, and take it from me there were lots or those in and around the time of Jesus!

So could Jesus have been resurrected?

Do you believe the Jewish god existed?

No. I am pretty sure on that front ...

... would be kind of hard then for Jesus to get resurrected don't you think?

But, just say for instance he does ...

That the Jewish god exists?

Yes!

So why would Jesus be resurrected by the Jewish god?

Apart from being Jewish there was nothing in the stories of Jesus to indicate he was the messiah?

Right ... being just another man, probably charismatic and with devoted followers but he wasn't the Jewish messiah ...

And I think we have covered the messiah angle extensively!

We have. So why would the Jewish god resurrect Jesus then?

If the Jewish god existed he would have no better reason to resurrect Jesus than anyone else!

So my friend, who do you think resurrected Jesus?

Well ... what if he didn't actually die and just woke up later?

That might have been difficult if you believe the passion stories, he took quite a beating, which culminated in a spear through the ribcage!

But ...

But say for instance he never died, what problems do you think that gives Christians.

Ummn no resurrection, no demonstration of the eternal kingdom, no suffering messiah ...

No Christianity!

So what do you think really happened?

Ummn ... I don't know?

Think about it!

Assuming of course there was a god willing to resurrect Jesus the very act of the resurrection would have to be a ...

... miracle.

Right ... and what would that make the god that did this?

God by his nature would have to be a supernatural being!

He would ... miracles by their very nature are events that can only be undertaken by supernatural beings.

Which I guess is different from the miraculous?

... such as a man surviving in the crumbled remnants of a building for three days after an earthquake. Which would be ...

... within the capabilities of human endurance but not at the want of a supernatural being! Miraculous but not a miracle!

Right ... !

So ... ?

So do people claim miracles actually happen?

Yes ... all the time!

But when the facts are investigated ...

... they are proven to be bogus or at best miraculous!

So the resurrection!

Yes ... ?

Miracle ... ?

It would have to be, being brought back from the dead by a supernatural god!

And do miracles occur.

Not once in all recorded time, where man can apply reason to the events!

Exactly!

So the only time we do actually have miracles ...

... is when man had no information about the world about them, no information with which to reason, so anything they didn't understand was a miracle ...

... or an act of god.

So Jesus resurrected?

No ... either a mis-understanding or another fabricated story by someone that believed so hard, they wanted Jesus to be the messiah.

And without a resurrection where does that leave Christianity?

A collection of myths that have been born out of peoples need to believe something other than mainstream Judaism.

Interesting huh?

Very ... but even now this, still I find it hard to let go.

It will be difficult ...

So much faith over so many hundreds of years. All for nothing! It just doesn't seem feasible, it feels too real not be true.

I suppose if you want it to be real it can be ... Father Santia will welcome you with upturned palms.

I know ... I don't want to make it real, it's just ...

It's just that if so many people have worshipped for so long, how could it not be true!

That's exactly what I feel!

Then it is for you to decide. If you feel that the ancient Jewish god of the Old Testament actually existed, and for some reason not mentioned once in any of his Old Testament scriptures, designated Jesus the Messiah ...

Then ... ?

Then you have come to the right place and have no more need for me.

Oh but I do ... there are so many more questions!

Then you better have a think about where your mind and sense for reason will take you!

Okay ... I will. Can I ask one more quick question?

Sure, why not.

Now that you have almost convinced me of a truth around man's desire for faith through constructed religions ...

... go on!

Where does that leave you god?

Ah ha! ... what a difference three blinks of times eye will make!

What do you mean ... !

Take a long hard look at yourself my friend ... a long hard look.

I am ...

Then don't stop looking.

I don't understand, is that it, what does it mean?

For now .... you need time to think this all through, we will talk again.

Okay!

Then we will look at finding the truth of 'god' and through this you will discover where your belief must lay.

Now come, we should leave this place.