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Unbridled by
control skins
The leaf the water
seed and grass
embrace me
The smallest knowing
nothing hidden: shared
And the ultimate way
is back where you came from
Don't condemn
don't back away
It will all be this way
Soon.
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Written by Phil (6713 comments posted) 28th September 2007 | Sorry Andy, beyond me.
Phil. |
Written by andybyers (171 comments posted) 28th September 2007 | Phil, may we take that as understood for poems like this from now on? I think it's well established by now.  |
Written by Bottleblondesurfer (3352 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | "for poems like this"
And what sort of poems are they then, I wonder?
Jane |
Written by andybyers (171 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | I suppose that would be any poem where Phil felt his comments to be confined to something in the nature of "I don't get it". Of course, only Phil can actually make that determination.
Joking aside, I do understand there are poems I post that aren't Phil's cup of tea; I accept that, and I'm fine with it. It just seems pointless, and verging on gratuitous, to me to say "I don't get it" every time. So? And? What result or effect is it likely to have? Am I going to stop posting work that I'm happy with because someone might not "get" it? Am I going to self-censor a work that I'm happy with out of the fear that someone might not like the technique? Am I going to start limiting myself to concrete and earthbound imagery when I'm in a mood to write in a more freely-associative mode because someone might tell me it was a head-scratcher? No, none of that is going to happen. Now, obviously I can't stop Phil from saying whatever he likes about anything, but I personally wouldn't mind if, whenever Phil did make that determination, if he didn't also feel compelled to say so. |
Written by Bottleblondesurfer (3352 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | The meaning of every written communication is the response you get .
I presume as you post up you want to communicate something to us. Phil is doing you the courtesy of telling you that you haven't achieved that for him,this time.
Of course if you don't care what people think, that's fair enough but you may have noticed a review box at the end of the posting and it is common practise to give an opinion. It's, kind of, why the site is here.
By all means write what you like [I know I do] but surely it's success must be measured by how it affects people.
I often am surprised by comments that I get. People often comment on bits that I didn't think funny and pass over bits that I was pleased with. I can either complain they didn't "get" it or re-assess my own perception. It's a learning process
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Written by andybyers (171 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | I often am surprised by comments that I get.
Yeah, me too. But not in this circumstance, which is kind of my point. |
Written by Phil (6713 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | Phil again!
Apologies if I seem gratuitous. It wasn't intended. However, if I choose to post, I'll do it my way, not anyone else's. After all the discussions on this, I thought it was agreed that any response was valid. I understood that any response was what some pieces were designed to illicit. To say this was beyond me, was, I suppose, a polite way of saying, 'I don't get it.' To say it's beyond me is saying it's my responsibility, not the writer's. To say, 'I don't get it,' puts the responsibility on the writer.
Perhaps I should have been blunter. I don't 'get' this one. I honestly don't think it's my fault. I've often openly admitted my denseness when it comes to poetry. However, I read and consider, read again and think some more. The piece fails to communicate to me any of the (possibly multifarious) meaning it may have. It has nothing to do with what is or isn't my cup of tea. It was a brief response as I had no wish to reopen old issues - but here we are again.
Say I write something. Say I get a response of, 'I don't get it.' As a writer, that tells me something. Firstly, it tells me that someone has bothered to read and think about the words I've tried to craft. For that, I'm grateful. It also tells me my words are not communicating meaning - at least to that reader. That may have been my desired effect - fine - now I know I've been successful. If I wanted to communicate something (or anything) then I know I need to change something. It is not, nor will ever be, a gratuitous or throw away response - even if the reader is stupid.
Odd situation this. While this isn't the place to discuss the issue, it has arisen here. The last two threads have been inexplicably locked down. It might surprise you (Andy) to know, that I look forward to reading your work. I get a lot from many of your pieces. When I do, I tell you so - I hope at least that is clear. I'm not going to be censored in what I write, but if you like, I will agree to completely ignore your work. Gratuitous by absence. Do be aware though, I seem to be your only regular respondee. Let me know.
I do find it a little sad that any review on GW, and god knows there are few enough of them, is 'pushed away.'
To be clear: there's no anger or personal animosity here - just disillusionment.
Phil
Oh, and, I do feel complelled to say: you should post whatever, however and whenever you like, including reviews - as will I. |
Written by andybyers (171 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | Oh, God. It’s not even noon…
Look, Phil, I did not ask you to stop commenting on my work. I just made a suggestion, that’s all. I’m going to frank, and I’m going to go against the grain here, but it’s true: telling me “I don’t get it” is useless to me. Sorry, but there it is. It doesn’t encourage me in what you’ve found that you like, nor does it offer advice on how a piece might be improved or expanded, nor does it inform me concerning technique or suggest a resource or example that might. It’s simply you venting. Every time.
I mean, Jesus, it’s like having someone over to dinner and every time he sees a tray of pickled onions, he feels he HAS to tell the whole table, “Oh, I don’t like pickled onions!” Yes, I know you don’t like pickled onions, Phil; the pickled onions aren’t for you; they’re for the people who like pickled onions — however few they may be; I happen to be one of them. That’s why they’re there. If you see something you think might be a pickled onion, have a bread stick. Try the mashed potatoes. All kinds of different writing on my table; you’ve said as much yourself. Just please… ease up on me about the pickled onions already.
Now if you feel you must leave my table, so be it. I’m not asking you to do that, but it’s your call. Though I am a little perplexed at the seemingly hurt reaction, given that not all that long ago you came on here, purporting to be drunk, and used that as your excuse to condemn my opinions as “bullshit”… not in a personal message, mind you, but in a public forum. So I have to confess myself a bit surprised that as mild a rebuke as this could have such resonance with you. |
Written by Phil (6713 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | Almost time for a drink over here.
I'm quite aware you didn't ask me to stop commenting on your work but I think I'd better avoid your work from now on. My reviews may be useless to you, but they were given honestly and without malice. Has it occurred that a little help from you might assist me? As for venting, absolutely not. For the third time, you choose to interpret what I've written in a way that wasn't intended. I thought I'd been quite careful; perhaps my grasp of the written word isn't quite as strong as I thought.
I have suggested on more than one occasion how your poetry might be improved, but you have chosen to reject that. Fine, I don't have a problem with that - it's your work and I recognise my limitations. But if you seek opinion, which I suppose you do, that's just what I gave, and if you continue to post here, you'll continue to get it from others.
Interesting that you're not interested about the reader liking your work or not.
Mild? Perhaps. Resonance? Definitely. I strongly disagree with your take on reviewing. It's not gratuitous, I've not vented anything. I haven't posted, 'I don't get it every time.'
I did say I've not heard so much BS for a long time. Perhaps it was an unkind way to express what I felt - but I stand by the sentiment, if not the words.
I still say, though it's not a useful comment, that I've enjoyed your work. Thanks for that.
And again - To be clear: there's no anger or personal animosity here - just disillusionment.
Enjoy your writing,
Phil. |
Written by Phil (6713 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | | Oh, I actually like pickled onions - and if I didn't, I'd still give them a go anyway - which is kind of my point. |
Written by Bottleblondesurfer (3352 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | " it’s like having someone over to dinner and every time he sees a tray of pickled onions, he feels he HAS to tell the whole table",
A pretty banal analogy and aren't you admiting that all your poems are the same. If you don't like one you won't like the others. One pickled onion is much like another, no variation. So if we don't like one of your poems we won't like any of them, I can't decide whether you are an elitist snob or deprecatingly honest. |
Written by stevetroster (1549 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | Well, this is an interesting little chat that you have going on! (again!!)
As Jane points out "I presume that as you post up you want to communicate something to us." otherwise it is just a collection of words that are strung together, which might sound pretty but, if it's only the author who gets it, is there any point to the work? As far as I can tell, no-one has got this poem yet!!
This is just my opinion and probably isn’t worth much, as most of my work is very self-indulgent and therefore appeals to a very limited audience. But hell, I love it when someone gets it, how about you?
All the best,
Steve.
| Hey, you two,
Written by audrie (451 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | do you want somebody to hold your coats?
I started on the poem thinking it was about plants not enclosed in human skins, but then I sort of lost it after that,
As Jane said, the whole idea of GW is to get feedback. If you can't take criticism calmly then bash a few pillows before answering!
Talisker once told me that one of my poems was a 'load of religious claptrap', but I didn't see the point of taking offence, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. And another thing he said was ' why does poetry have to mean anything?'when I said his list of his cryptic mosaics didn't make sense.
But we all have to have a sense of humour and not take ourselves too seriously. At the same time I think constructive criticism is better than destructive, although I think Phil is a lovely chap!
You two have a clash of personality so maybe best if you stay away from each other in future? |
Written by andybyers (171 comments posted) 29th September 2007 | otherwise it is just a collection of words that are strung together, which might sound pretty
Bingo! Sometimes that's all it is. A poem like this is just an exercise in free association and it's meant to be euphonic and would likely evoke different responses and "meanings" in anyone who read it.
A pretty banal analogy
Yeah, I know, but I figured I'd better aim low or I'd just be accused of obtuseness again.
I can't decide whether you are an elitist snob or deprecatingly honest.
Why can't I be both? |
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