Really - just keeping my hand in.
Deuce
It was recently stated to me that the government of this country were actively sidelining religion. My initial reaction was to scoff – but I suppose even whinging Christians ought to be considered worthy of further thought once in a while.
The Queen is the head of state, she is also the head of the Anglican church. Every full Anglican Bishop has an automatic right to sit in the House of Lords. Churches and other religious organisations are given charitable status. The Bible is incorporated into legal hearings.
As well as the official role the church plays to scaffold our democracy, its senior members are dragged out with irritating regularity by the media to hold forth their opinions about the latest moral outrage. Why is their opinion anymore valid than yours or mine?
This particular Christian pointed out that wasn’t what he meant. It never is, is it? Argue with success against a Christian and they move the goal posts. The church, apparently, doesn’t represent Christianity. Interesting point this. While I agree that the established churches no longer seem to be relevant and appear more interested in power and wealth than spiritual wellbeing, they do require some discipline to be members of. Christians who thumb their noses at the more traditional churches to start their own brand of religion end up creating their own set of rules and faith. Sure, each would claim that they had the purest and truest form of Christianity, but they can’t all be right.
I think what it boiled down to was perceived political correctness. Odd how many fundamentalists read the Daily Mail. I don’t suppose it’s odd they believe every word that’s printed therein – they do have a nasty habit of taking things as given truths without thought – if it suits them. I have no idea if it’s illegal to stand on the corner of your local high street and claim that homosexuality is evil – but at root, that was the problem: a perception that the government was stopping him abusing a section of society that he disapproved of because of his interpretation of the Bible. It was tempting to throw back quotes like love your neighbour and judge not etc. But what’s the point in playing verbal tennis when you just know the court markings will move as you send back an unplayable passing shot?
Typical of most people who hold faith dear, he was blaming an outside force for the failings of his own belief system.
I did seem to play the winning shot in the end. He made the suggestion that society was in such a mess because Christianity was in steep decline (due to the government) and if the whole country was to convert, we’d all be okay: there’d be no more child abuse, anti-social behaviour, drug taking etc. I (perhaps unfairly) suggested that Christianity only had itself to blame. After all, anything that promises the payoff of eternal life and fails to convince people to follow must be doing something wrong.
Game set and match – or so I thought.
This morning I received a book through the post: it details Christian faith outside of the church. I guess for now, it’s deuce. No doubt the discussion will start afresh when I return his book.
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Hi Phil Written by jean.day (2279 comments posted) 14th February 2008 |
Well said and well argued. You have a lot of very valid points. I liked the bit about how if Christianity promises such a wonderful payoff to its followers, it must be doing something wrong as it now has so few adherents. Personally, I don't think the Queen should be head of the Anglican Church - and hopefully, if Charles gets in, he will change that. I don't think bishops should be automatically included in the House of Lords, and that whole assembly is due for a change anyway. I don't mind swearing on a bible, but think it is important to have an alternative for non believers. |
Written by fellpony (1608 comments posted) 14th February 2008 |
I didn't twig at first that the person you were arguing with was a real one, whom you were talking to face to face. Changing one word at the start of Para 4 - "This" to "One" - would have settled my mind that you weren't discussing the Archbishop of either Canterbury or Carlisle, both of whom were in the news this week. The tennis analogy works well. I won't argue with the points made Typo? there’s be no more child abuse |
Written by Phil (6713 comments posted) 14th February 2008 |
Thanks Sue. Changed there's to there'd. Thanks Jean. |
Written by Bottleblondesurfer (3352 comments posted) 14th February 2008 |
This was a cogent and well argued piece and all the points you made logically laid out and perfectly reasonable but as you say will not have any effect because your religious friend is not governed by such conventions as logic and reason. It’s not so much that they move the goal posts it’s that they continually reinvent the rules so that what you say is always “off side” In fact it’s more a case you playing cricket while he is playing football and arguing about who is winning. I could not have written this, in such a measured and well-argued way. And it was good to read something like this. It’s just a shame it won’t register with your friend. As Dawkins said your friend’s mind is infected with the religious mind virus and nothing else will make any sense to him. I don’t have a problem with that- we all have a right to reassuring self-delusions but it is when they to give them legal status and enshrine their beliefs in law that I start to shudder. I recently had to get probate for control of my mother’s will and I had to swear on the bible to make it legal. I said I was an atheist and they were shocked that I should admit to it .Why should I have to do that? Just ask your friend Why they called the period when religion held sway, the dark ages. It wasn’t because of daylight saving time.
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Written by Fledermaus (3281 comments posted) 14th February 2008 |
Hi Phil. Actually I do think that the decline in Christianity is to blame for a part of the problems in today's Western societies. Not because Christianity is so incredibly great, but because it has been the foundation of Western civilization for centuries. It has been the moral compass of people for ages and although there are some people who could easily do without prophets, philosophers and priests, I think the majority of people can't. Without guidelines many people would give up the quest for what is ethical and simply fall back into some sort of nihilism... Maybe that's also why religious leaders get so much attention: They are supposed to be experts on ethics. Of course not all of them are, but then, I also know linguists that are language-purists, which is just as ridiculous. |
Written by Bottleblondesurfer (3352 comments posted) 14th February 2008 |
| Yes but you don't get language-purist suicide bombers do you? |
Written by coosh (867 comments posted) 15th February 2008 |
| You're right about moving the goalposts; these are seemingly endless arguments. Christianity (particularly in the US) appears to be becoming more fundamentalist, political and nonsensical, perhaps in response to 9/11. And "scientist" seems to have become synonymous with "atheist" - irrespective of the fact that Darwin spent his whole life as a member of the Church. I think it was Shaw, amongst others, who said you can interpret the Bible any way you want, which leaves us with your excellent analogy of verbal tennis and moving court markings. Interesting perspective in this piece - I wish you luck wading through his book. |
Written by Phil (6713 comments posted) 15th February 2008 |
Tanks for reading and commenting. As far as the book goes: I've read the first chapter and won't be reading any more. Intellectually impoverished - and not an entertaining read either. Phil. |
Written by JohnFHamill (34 comments posted) 19th February 2008 |
It is inappropriate to look at any church and think "if they're doing it then it's ok" because true religious teaching says that any religion is made up of people like you and me, who are capable of any sin just like you and me. But whenever they die they will be held accountable for all they've done no matter what position they held in their lives. You can't really openly argue against any religion because of religious rights etc. but most of them are based upon the founders' own interests i.e. Henry VIII founded the very Church of England of today and the only reason he did that is so that he could get remarry and get laid. In terms of religion, it was prophesised that the world would find all sorts of reasons and excuses not to hold the ideaology dear, because the very idea doesn't suit thieir way of life. So maybe there's no real point in fighting it because if someone couldn't be bothered getting up on a Sunday morning to go to mass, then they won't. But it's also very important to realise that those that do get up aren't automatically "good" people. |
Written by Phil (6713 comments posted) 19th February 2008 |
Thanks for reading and commenting, John - always appreciated. Just out of interest, you say: 'because true religious teaching says...' Where does true come into it? Whose truth? Phil |
Written by JohnFHamill (34 comments posted) 19th February 2008 |
Bible I say, before human's got anywhere near it. Before we screwed it up yet again! |
Written by stevetroster (1549 comments posted) 19th February 2008 |
"Bible I say, before human's got anywhere near it." Before humans got anywhere near it?! And there was me thinking that humans wrote all the holy books, including the bible. You already know my feelings on the subject. I once read a copy of Watchtower, then dashed out to buy a tin of polyfilla so I could patch up all the holes. As Jane said, a cogent and well argued piece. All the best, Steve.
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Written by JohnFHamill (34 comments posted) 19th February 2008 |
Yeah well the believe if that God spoke through those that delivered it, but then it depends on your own belief and stuff. It didn't just appear on a piece of paper, or so I was obviously disgracefully lead to believe. Again, picking deliberate holes! |
Written by johniebg (538 comments posted) 25th February 2008 |
An interesting observation but you touch on a few of the interesting points without investigating any at any depth. Societies need to be ruled with secular eyes. In this modern day you only have to look at the dubious human rights records of Islamic governments to see why, and through just our history the tug of war murders, burnings, beheadings etc that catholics and protestants served upon each other just more than three centuries ago. Looking further afield would take up a great deal of time and open our eyes so much wider. Religion should at best be purely a personal perspective although personally, and I have looked into this in very fine detail. Anyone that believes a bunch of stories written 1500-2500 years ago by a people that didn't know jot about anything - as a literal word of god and a guide for life - given what we know about biologogy, cellular reproduction, dna mutation and therefore evolution of species - is either ignorant, intellectually blind or plain stupid. Honestly, the son of god turning demons into pigs for laughs? Sure sounds perfectly plausible to me. Would like to have seen more detail but that probably is just me.
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Written by punchy (500 comments posted) 28th March 2008 |
I enjoyed reading this Phil. Your comments on the Daily Mail readers made me laugh ( you've obviously met my mother). I am a nonbeliever myself. Were any of the writings in the bible written by women? If not does that suppose that God only felt men worthy of spreading the message and if thats the case seeing as he supposedly created men and women did he doubt his own work?
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Written by Merioneth (79 comments posted) 18th April 2008 |
Arguing with religious adherents is like writing a term paper on a cat. It can't be done. Personally I'm amazed that we still have to have these conversations. At what point do we throw up our hands and say "okay, enough. This is silly and I'm not going to lend your beliefs any more credibility by debating them as though they were legitimate arguments"? As for the claim that religion (read: christianity) is being sidelined, I hear that a lot here in the states and I think it is because if religion does not take center stage at all times it is seen as being marginalized. The terms "religion" and "faith" are thrown around a lot but suggest that yes, maybe it would be a grand idea if the government took Vishnu into account when making their decisions, you'll usually find yourself speaking to a very flabberghasted Christian. I was reading "The God Delusion" in an elevator once and a fellow passenger said "God loves you". I looked up at her, frankly a little amazed at her audacity, and she continued "you know how I know? Because he talks to me, and he tells me he loves me. And that's how I know he loves you too". We arrived at my floor, the doors slid open, and I turned round and asked her "which one?" right before they slid closed again. It may be pertinent to mention that the elevator was in a mental health facility |
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