To all you critics
Who love to pour scorn
I must, before I digress
Give you a warn
For continuing on
You will only find
An endless attack
On your sad sorry minds
So the let the flames fly high
And we shall begin
We’ll first discuss your arrogance
Probably the worst of your sins
The way you think you have the right
To look down at me from your nose
When your own bleak, petty work
Also has nothing to show
You believe because you enter a comma,
A clever rhyme or a pun
It somehow makes your poetry brilliant
It makes it somehow fun
And so my own feeble work
It may be inferior, it may be far from best
But at least it comes from the heart
At least its purely honest
The fact remains my troubled friends
Is you need to get a life
Everyday you spend your life in words
Seeking errors, blights and strife
But can’t you see it doesn’t matter
About if the structure is wrong or right?
Its about whether you can send a message
If a hopeful beacon you could light.
Now I’m not saying that I’m any good
At what I try to do
I accept I often fail spectacularly
And make myself look like a fool
But enjoyment from the written word
Is what I do receive
Yet still you snidely sneak around
Refusing to live or to believe
Now a true poet is one who is free
To express themselves the way they wish
Against war, for war
They can be as generous or as selfish
It is not for I to decide
If what they say is good or bad
It is about having the liberty
No restrictions on moods glad and sad
What I really think I’m trying to say
Is there really is no right or wrong.
A good poem needs neither be complex,
Simple, short or long
It is about achieving your ideas
You initially thought to sought
It is about creating questions, providing light
Poetry is independent thought.
So before you decide to open mouths
Or unleash your hands feely on to keys
I would ask you take a moment
Just take a moment to think please.
These words might not mean a thing to you
You might think better they were never wrote
But it might mean something to someone somewhere
In fact it does, it must to the poet.
I do not mean to cause offence
Or cause insult to the more serious artist
I simply ask that you open your eyes
To all the beauty that arises
Sometimes to meanings and ideas
That you sometimes turn blind
Open your eyes, open your heart,
And open up your mind
If you still brim with anger
At a lecture from someone so inept
How dare I stand and preach
When I’ve barely learnt the art!
Then ask yourself why you read on
When I already warned you what to expect
Shouldn’t you have just stopped
When I told you what was coming next?
It was your own snobbish vanity
That held you there was it not?
It was your narrow-minded ways
That trained your deceitfulness into thoughts
So if this poem makes you cringe
Or drives you to despair
You can shout and scream all you want
‘Cause frankly friends, I don’t care
|
Written by beatricelouise (215 comments posted) 16th March 2008 |
Sounds like some critics are lashing at you mr_soul. I'm with you in this, just so you know not everyone is against you.
Free to write what we chose, and what is art to some may not be to others. Kind of like the old saying, Junk to some but a treasure to another.
I remember writing a poem years ago now. Leaving it sitting on the table, my daughter happened upon it. She said it was just what she needed at this particular rough time in her life. We never know who our words will effect.
Well done. A bit of polishing would make it even better. |
Written by mia_ms_kim (975 comments posted) 16th March 2008 |
This is very funny! Since I'm ignorant about poetry I'm not offended by either side of the arguement. And now I find I'm beginning to agree with everyone, which means I'm agreeing with no one in particular.
Does it matter? I enjoyed this one, too.
Mia  |
Written by Robru (204 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
I liked the sentiments expressed and the way it was done. Evil to him[or her] who evil thinks. I read a lot, if I don't like it I leave quietly or just shut the book. Well done. |
Written by Phil (6645 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
And now I'm setting myself up as a subject of this piece.
There is a part of this I agree with - that writing is about communication. What you've communicated - I don't agree with.
Just to state the obvious: GW is an open site and it is partly designed for writers and readers to exchange views. All of us have received positive and negative comments here. It's one way we can learn - how our work is received by others. If you are saying you only want positive comments, you're on the wrong site. You need a blog where you can edit and delete comments.
I could go on, I won't.
I do hope this was more tongue in cheek than it appears.
Phil
|
Written by Veronica_Milvus (595 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
I am sure the greatest poets spent time and sweat studying their craft. That is why they are remembered.
I've said this before but at the risk of being boring, poetry is different from prose because there is more in it than the meaning of the words; there is a rhythm, some rhyme, some words chosen for their sound as well as their meaning.
So I work hard at it and I practice it. The negative comments I try to learn from, the positive comments I relish as evidence that I have got through to somebody.
Just breaking up sentences and writing them into short lines does not a poem make.
V |
Written by gutterkitty (362 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
I have to agree with VM, this is prose broken down into short lines and would do better in the forum. You need to balance content with written style when writing a poem, rather than focussing simply on content. It's also somewhat lengthy.
As for the content, poetry is like any other art form: it involves freedom of expression, but it also involves a great deal of discipline in order to shape that expression. It takes a lot of hard work to learn how to restrict oneself so that one's work doesn't end up ranty and shapeless. |
It would help ...
Written by patterjack (1159 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
...if it were written in more grammatical English -- for instance see the usage of wrote , warn --- and with less scatter gun style rhyme .
Your preaching got to be quite reminiscent to me of the old tub-thumpers of my youth -- and it is interesting how , as you wound up and the verses dragged on and on , they were expressed in longer and longer lines.
i could almost see the spittle fly.
Yes , I cringed -- at how bad this was.
patterjack |
Written by mr_soul (126 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
Firstly, i'm glad this managed to open up debate. It was the intention was it not?
Let me make it clear that this isn't an attack on anyone who's gave me negative comments on this site. I can see why people might read it that way but it wasn't my intention. Anyone who read my profile would see I said I welcomed honesty and if they disliked what they read then they were to say so. Criticism is something I can take.
Now you can all argue about how good or bad this poem is - I think I already admitted my very amateur status in the poem. That is the purpose of this site afterall, I am fully aware of that fact.
But my point in this poem was really, without going on for too long, about how restrictive I feel some people are towards poetry. Now I haven't been on this site for very long but I get a whiff of elitism. Poetry is something that should be open to everyone, not just those who have spent years studying it. I admit I haven't studied lots of poetry, I really don't know the ins and outs of it. There, you know more about it than me! Give yourself a clap on the back. I accept my ignorance, I haven't the faintest idea what some people are talking about on this site half the time.
Its funny, in a way the point in my poem was proven in the comments. The first threee members actually liked it, while the previous four did not. All poetry is open to interpretation, open to different points of view. Just because my poem didn't meet the standards of some, doesn't mean that others cannot enjoy it or take something from it. That was the point.
Anyway, thanks for all the comments
ps use of warn and wrote were quite deliberate. |
Written by patterjack (1159 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
I get a whiff of elitism.
Presumably because you cannot understand some of the poems or reviews.
Poetry is something that should be open to everyone, not just those who have spent years studying it.
Do you mean , let's reduce it to the lowest common denominator ?
ps use of warn and wrote were quite deliberate.
Now pull the other leg !! and by the way , the singular noun here should take a singular verb
patterjack |
Oh dear
Written by mr_soul (126 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
It would appear I've upset the very uptight patterjack. You know, I wasn't really thinking of anyone in particular when I wrote this poem but I'd now like to dedicate it to you patterjack. You are the poet snob I was refering to.
I've already said I am limited. I think it is you who doesn't understand my poem or my comment above. I said I am new to this whole game. I enjoy writing, when I write the words just come out, I don't spend hours and hours on them really, thats just the way I do it. I'm willing to learn though.
I respect the comments from Phil, Veronica and gutterkitty because they offered insightful comments, constructive criticism, not the bitter mocking you decided to serve up. ( I hope I cleared up Phil's point. I hope he sees that I'm not saying I only want positive comments).
You basically, with that last comment, tried to make me look stupid. You made yourself look very arrogant I'm afraid.
And no, I wasn't saying reduce it to the lowest common denominator. You really twisted my words there. Just to clear it up for you patterjack, I was simply saying that everyone should be encouraged to write poetry regardless of age or ability. People should be able to express themselves any way they wish, not just restricted to rules snobs like you set upon them.
I actually quite like this poem. i really don't care what you think of it to be honest. I'm actually quite glad it got up your nose, that was the intention really. So I'm not going to change it, warn and wrote will stay as well. How do you know I didn't deliberately put them in, it was me who wrote this poem.
So I stand by my poem and its ideas. Criticise all you want, but please don't patronise me with your arrogant crap. |
Limited indeed you are
Written by patterjack (1159 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
but thank you for the dedication .
From one of your own youthful arrogance and patronising tone I consider it a compliment by its very inversion.
patterjack |
Written by Bottleblondesurfer (3298 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
"Poetry is something that should be open to everyone,"
I don't understand this. Are you saying there is no such thing as bad poetry?Surely that is just inverted snobbery?
I may be thick but I don't understand the point you are making in your poem. This site is open to everyone. You can't contol the comments you get. Attacking people for critical comments is missing the point of the site.
The review is always valid because "The meaning of every written communication is the response you get" That is the golden rule.
And if you think comments here are harsh then you are in for a traumatising shock when you submit to a professional publisher. They tell the way they see it without any regard for fragile egos. I can show you some rejection letters if you like. Scary stuff indeed!!
cheers |
Written by mr_soul (126 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
Well I'll try and make myself as clear as I can.
I don't mind criticism, it doesn't bother me. Believe me, I've had a lot more thrown at me in my life than a few negative posts on a website from faceless people. I'm capable of handling it. Feel free to criticise, I don't know how many times I've said that now. That was not the point in this poem, it has been totally misunderstood. Bad poetry? Who decides what is a good poem and what is a bad poem? The person reading it surely! It is the reader who makes this decision is it not? And as I've said before, the first three comments on here were actually positive about it. So somebody thought it was ok.
There was a debate on here about Pam Ayers, some people dislike her poetry, some do not. It is a matter of opinion.
I value all reviews provided they are designed to help the author improve their work. My point was to illustrate how some would think poetry is simply for a small group of - in this field - learned people. That others who are not so able should not be able to express themselves the way they wish. I don't believe that. I think people should be free to say what they want and how they want. They should be prepared for criticism certainly, but not snobbish abuse designed to put down rather than help. You may disagree but that was the point. The people I was getting at in the poem was not everyone who posts a critical comment. It was aimed at those who do not share my view that poetry is open to all.
Thanks again. |
REVIEW METHODS - another topic
Written by mia_ms_kim (975 comments posted) 17th March 2008 |
This is no longer a discussion on this poem or even poetry in general, but about acceptable review methods. Perhaps this should move to the forum??? I think there is already a thread in "Soap Box", where members discuss the use of profanities by the reviewers.
Mia  - who is distressed when hard words are exchanged between members (and who is guilty of dishing up some herself). |
Written by fellpony (1580 comments posted) 18th March 2008 |
"ask yourself why you read on"
There is an implicit promise in something written, that it is a narrative of some kind leading to a conclusion. Nothing to do with the reader's vanity.
Others have mentioned the grammatical problems. I simply think you could have made your point much more concisely by marshalling your thoughts more carefully. |
Written by stevetroster (1549 comments posted) 18th March 2008 |
Dear Mr Soul.
There is always room for a new, honest 'Voice' at GW.
Keep up the good work. |
Written by Phil (6645 comments posted) 18th March 2008 |
God help us all.
Yes: 'Poetry is something that should be open to everyone, not just those who have spent years studying it.'
but that doesn't mean anyone else can't have an opinion - elite or otherwise. I've thought about your comments relating to elitism. I don't agree - but if someone like Wayne Rooney assessed my footballing skills, I'd have a lot more respect for his views than the last centre forward I kicked.
I did say in my original response that I could go on, but chose not to. I didn't want to inflame. However, as you seem to respect my review, I will, as this seems to have gone all over the place. We agree on communication. What I didn't say was that this communicates a petulant, self interested attitude. You may not have intended that, but that is what I get from this. Perhaps that is why you seem to have garnered a more direct collection of reviews than usual.
Anything can be poetry, anyone can write it - but only if the bar is lowered low enough. Quality in verse, as I have come to understand (if not yet produce) is something that develops with an immense amount of thought and practice. It is a craft as well as an art.
To claim, as you seem, that errors were ironic, may be true if hard to believe.
While I have no wish to anger, irritate or even bore you or other members who may be reading this, I value GW to highly to allow an apparent attack on standards pass. Quality around here is not as high as it was. That doesn't mean there's no room for poems written by the likes of me - just that I should expect some less than positive reviewing.
I admire your nerve - but still think you should consider a blog or develop a thicker, less sensitive skin.
Phil |
Written by Brett (731 comments posted) 18th March 2008 |
Much has been said above which does not need repeating, but Mr Soul, if your poems are to be read by others then I believe you must write them with the reader in mind aswell as what you wish to express. Metre is as important in poetry as rhythm is to music.
Please take a read of any book that deals with metre and poetic forms, not only are they fun to work with but make it a lot more enjoyable for your readers.
Phil alluded to Wayne Rooney and made a very good point, I shall attempt (however feebly) to make another -
what is the point of the touchline on a football field? If Wayne Rooney steps into touch or plays the ball into touch there is a stoppage in the action. The skill is what can be done within the confines of the pitch, not in hoofing the ball over the Streford End. Poetical forms are nothing to be afraid of, I promise you. Learn them and you will improve no end.
Cheers
Brett |
Written by Veronica_Milvus (595 comments posted) 18th March 2008 |
Anyone can write poetry - but aren't we striving to write "good" poetry?
If you join an orchestra without being able to play an instrument, if you join a football team as a striker but can't hit the goal, if you take a job as a car mechanic but can't tell a spark plug from a petrol cap - would everyone say - it's ok, it doesn't matter, at least you are trying?
No!
All shall NOT have prizes.
This is a craft we are learning here. I am just picking up the tools myself at the age of 44, I wasn't taught this at school and I've spent the last 25 years working in science. I'm a beginner and some of these good people are kind enough to guide me, but I am also making an effort to learn the tools and techniques, and studying the work of people who have already done this well. |
Written by Veronica_Milvus (595 comments posted) 18th March 2008 |
oh - and I do object to your insinuation in the poem that anything that is well crafted can't be honest or from the heart.
meh! |
Written by anaisanais (62 comments posted) 21st March 2008 |
| lol. ooh that must feel better and look at the views! hehe. Am fairly new to poetry myself and pretty much self taught thus said i do leave opinion. But I try to leave constructive criticism in the way I myself would like to be helped. Problem is poetry like other art forms has poets writing for different reasons....some more serious than others and there is no way to distinguish this really. Fair to say you certainly got your message accross an art every good poet needs and to hold in the mind after the reader moves away - I think you score there too! Fair cop from my corner! Don't take things personal its actually usually people trying to help, maybe how it is done though is sometimes forgotten - I just don't know. Don't give up! Enjoy! Kindest thoughts and intentions... |
Written by Merioneth (79 comments posted) 18th April 2008 |
I wrote a really long reply and then I scrapped it. There's something to be said for brevity.
Ignorance is not a virtue. Knowledge is not a liability. Don't ball up your fists and insist those with more knowledge play the game on your terms. Learn. Rise above. Refine your art. Earn your praise.
Poetry without ambition is just masturbation. |
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