I read one woman’s account of struggle over her childhood abuse in the hands of her father. Her rage and despair have hit me hard, particularly because of the way she directed them towards God. This is how I read her.
(These verses are adapted from the woman’s own words, who is revealed only as Dee in the book ‘Prayer’ by Phillip Yancey, a Christian thinker who seems to major on the subject of human suffering.)
Dee’s Prayer
I shake my fists in his face,
And I pound them on his chest.
He presses me against his beating heart.
I wrestle him to the ground dirt.
I lash out against his all might.
And he pins me down drowned in dust.
I fall back, wet and spent.
Is it a stranglehold - or a lover’s hold?
I feel his teardrops fall on my face.
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Point of view
Written by patterjack (1328 comments posted) 29th March 2008 | Disturbingly unclear - I chose that first word advisedly .
The content puts me in mind of some of the metaphysical poets and their poems about their struggles with their own faith - and there is a strong element of the secular and temporal in this as well.
Wrestling with angels or wrestling men ? -- I am not clear .
The work , for something that talks of an experience at third hand -- Dee's , Yancey's and now yours -- is very compressed and remains open to different viewpoints
Disturbing , as I said before.
patterjack |
Written by Phil (6836 comments posted) 29th March 2008 | Second verse - is 'all' necessary? Doesn't read quite right (to me) with it there.
I actually see this pretty clearly - possibly.
There's an awful paradox that makes the abuse much worse for this woman. Not only has she suffered at the hands of an abuser - she can not understand how her (I'm assuming: all powerful, all loving, PERSONAL) god could let this happen. In some ways she suffers twice as she's also let down by the one thing she thought she could rely on. She rebels in her prayer against god. The final verse I do find a little unclear - and disturbing too. God, metaphorically, fights back, pins her down - are these Christ's tears of forgiveness/healing?
Course - she could just be recounting an abuse episode.
Whatever, an affecting piece.
PJ is quite right - disturbing. Not sure if that's good or bad.
If my first interpretation is anywhere near close, it confirms to me everything that's wrong about evangelical religion. I'm actually slightly familiar with Philip Yancey. I was sent a book of his by a religious friend. I read the first chapter but could not go any further. The man is intellectually bankrupt - either that or he is milking the followers of his religion.
Phil |
Written by Fledermaus (3448 comments posted) 29th March 2008 | | Sad and raw piece. I don't know the book you mention though, so can't comment on that... | Thank you, Patterjack, Phil, Fledermaus
Written by mia_ms_kim (1054 comments posted) 29th March 2008 | for your comments. Actually some of your comments went right over my head, but as always, they are insightful. I think all of you are right in what you say. What Dee says, what Yancey says, and my own view points are all mixed together in this piece - and because I don't know the answer, and I don't think Dee knows nor Yancey, I left it open.
Dee's account was inserted in the chapter in 'Prayer' named 'Wrestling Match', a reference to Jacob's experience with an angel (who Jacob thinks is man initially, then is later referred to as God). What I wanted to do was give God a human face the woman could relate to and lash out at, one who responds to her grief as a human being would - say a good father or a husband, who enters into her suffering and suffer with her. It is not a one-sided fight, but a real wrestling between two parties. I felt this was the way to give the woman's pain the dignity it deserved. (patterjack, as always your perception astounds me. I'm referring to your comment about 'angels or men' as well as everything else - or what little I understood.)
Phil, I think you read most of my intention right. I've known one real case of childhood abuse perpetrated by the father (to his boy, now a man). I felt such cases were particularly painful in that they were abused by the one person (father) from whom they expected protection. The rage and confusion they feel at their father - then at God, I felt was perhaps a type of transference - therefore the disturbing confusion with which the woman in my poem related to God - as if he was her abuser. He takes her strikes, then he pins her down (like the abuser), but this time it is to protect her from hurting herself. "his all might" - I was trying to say the woman held God responsible for what happened to her since he is almighty, the blame ultimately lies with him.
And I wanted this piece to be raw, Fledermaus, I guess, because I feel there is no magic wand to wave over something like this. What hurts, hurts, and may be in admitting to it, there is some measure of healing.
As for Phillip Yancey's books, I basically find him deeply honest. He offers no glib answers and no formulas, and he is unafraid to ask questions to which there is no answer, humbling questions that makes me reassess myself as a human being. That's why I read him - or anybody else, I guess.
Thank you for your comments once again. I learn much from review comments.
Mia  |
Written by lauthiamkok (60 comments posted) 30th March 2008 | I have not read the book, and I dont know about the whole story. So I cannot really say something deeper like you replied to all those "reviewers".
Reading poetry, or a writing is a very subjective and personal process.
I read poetry especially in a different way. I will imagine myself as the poet of that poem, or I will imagine myself as the object or subject of that poem.
I try to find the poetic image in that poem/ writing which can move me secretly in my conciouse mind.
I can see the image you try to project in this poem/ creation, even though vaugely. But what suprises me and make me think is these two line,
"Is it a stranglehold - or a lover’s hold?
I feel his teardrops fall on my face."
I like the parodox in the ending here. It means to me (subjectively and personally again), there is no clear and solid answers in the end anyway. This is some kind of philosophy to me.
So why those "reviewers" looked for a "clear" answer or one solid image.
There are many types of people living in this country (or in this online community particularly); there are many variations even though in one particular ethnic too. Some are intelligent, some are just idiots, some have knowledge, some just haven't seen/ know enough even though they have lived a whole life through here (or have spent a lifetime on writing), so take it easy for what the said and will say.
"I learn" as you concluded in the end of your reply which I think you handled them well even though I think they don't reserve your long explaination because they can't "see" anyway.
I hope you dont feel falling back after those vicious and unhelpful remarks. Some people just have a bad day or a bad life here! Be mercyful then.
Best Wishes,
Lau
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Written by lauthiamkok (60 comments posted) 30th March 2008 | | opppsss sorry ...I meant "deserve" not "reserve" | Thank you, Lau, for your review.
Written by mia_ms_kim (1054 comments posted) 30th March 2008 | I didn’t quite think of the last two lines as paradox, but you are making me think now. I think you are right. “Is it a stranglehold or a lover’s hold?” is something I inserted later. I wanted to voice the question in Dee’s mind, who I believe was suffering confusion, therefore even greater pain. We get confused when there is a painful contradiction that cannot be reconciled, Eg. “How can my father who is supposed to love me and protect me, hurt me and there is no one to defend me?” “How can the good, personal God who I trust in, let this happen to me?”
But now I’m thinking I’m putting words in Dee’s mouth. It really is my question. I originally wrote at the end of the piece, “We make war – make love? / Is it a stranglehold or a lover’s hold?” After reading patterjack’s review (I think the man is a psychic  ), I saw the layers of myself interlacing the whole piece – that lack of clarity basically pointing to my own doubts and unresolved questions. And the underlying ‘men – angel – God’ motif points to the way I relate to God, ie. a humanoid God. I now wonder if human suffering is the macro-scale price for human freedom, and human pain is the cost of human dignity. (Sorry for my amateurish philosophising  I'm no poet and no philosopher.)
Now, about vicious reviews: Ah, Lau. I can see you are a new comer to GW. I’m relatively new myself, but I’ve been around the writing circles for a while, and I know how sensitive we are when we are first introduced to the review process. I used to get devastated when I first got my reviews from my critique partners and contest judges (I write fiction – or try to). I could strangle some reviewers for not appreciating my wit, art and superior intellect. But after accumulating a few rejection letters from agents and publishers, I now know that when someone takes the trouble to comment on my material, I’m getting somewhere – at least they did not throw out my work after reading the first three lines. I find GW reviewers are generally appreciative when they can see I’ve made a genuine effort.
So patterjack, Phil and Fledermaus are not at all being vicious. I am grateful for their thoughtful reviews as I am for yours. You might be thinking of Phil’s review in particular. But he is being analytical and very honest, which I respect. His opinion on Phillip Yancey made me wince a little, but at least he’s read the first chapter before throwing his book out. I’ve dismissed many books as being unworthy after reading just the back cover! And Phil would be the first person to denounce “vicious reviews”. (See the discussion thread in the forum – the right most column on the GW home page.) After a while, you get to distinguish between genuine reviews (positive or negative) and truly vicious ones. It takes some practice!
Thank you again for your review, Lau.
Mia  |
Written by Steve_K (55 comments posted) 31st March 2008 | | Really sad poem. Very emotive, captures the hopelessness of the said situation. Especially liked the line: "I fall back, wet and spent". Touching poem... | thank you, Steve
Written by mia_ms_kim (1054 comments posted) 31st March 2008 | I agree. This is too sad. I'm no poet, but some things trigger me and I feel the urge to add my voice to someone else's conviction, pain or whatever, probably because I identify with them at some level.
Mia |
Written by Merioneth (79 comments posted) 15th April 2008 | This poem is a prime example of how one's religion, or irreligion, can color their interpretations. I'll try not to go off on a tangent, or make unneccessary jabs at religion.
From my perspective as an atheist and antitheist I see this poem as an account of one woman's struggle with an imposing and aggresive god. I've long thought of the biblical god as needlessly cruel and violent, and I when it comes to any kind of abuse (human to human, human to animal, animal to animal i.e cats toying with crippled mice) the whole "god works in mysterious ways" axiom doesn't really cut it, at least for me.
So while it seems that this is a poem about god patiently letting an abused and furious woman beat on him, and the final line about teardrops indicates he has empathy and pity for the poor woman, I still come away with the impression of an intimidating, even psychotic deity, a figure as emotionally abusive as her earthly, physically abusive father.
Putting myself in a believer's shoes, I can see how this poem might be looked upon as a less cynical, even inspirational piece. Here is God, attempting to calm and console a broken woman, and caring enough to shed tears for her.
I liked the "I fall back, wet and spent" line. Couldn't tell you why, it just struck a chord. | Marioneth, thank you
Written by mia_ms_kim (1054 comments posted) 15th April 2008 | for your thoughtful review. I, too find the line, "I fall back, wet and spent" speaks to me most. I was trying to say making love and making war can sometimes be so close, and a wrestling match can look like making love. 'Stranglehold looks like a hug from a distance' says Yancey. As a woman and a married person, I can relate to that strange contradiction though my husband is a loving man. Sometimes the line between love and hate is confusingly blurred.
I don't think Christians would find this piece inspiring. They would find it disturbing because of the sexual connotation, and the blurred line between God and human, and the implied "irreverence". Some traditional people might find it blasphemeous. But I believe God is not so prudish nor so traditional. I believe he prefers brutal honesty to pretentious piety.
'I feel his teardrop...' - I meant to say there, that Dee is too exhausted to know or care what those tears meant. Sometime when pushed too far, we don't care or feel someone's compassion - or hatred, divine or human.
I can also understand your thoughts about a psychotic deity. Even CS Lewis who accepted the sovereignty of God, said after watching his wife die painfully from cancer, that he does not question that God exists - but whether He is good. That is a frightening question every honest Christian probably has to ask sometime in their lives.
I now wonder what really is the definition of 'good'? Humans do conjure up gods in our own image, and impose our expectations on them. Christians are no exception. This is my attempt to be an honest believer, with a frank relationship with God. If he squashes me like a bug for my irreverence, then so be it, but from what little I've experienced, I don't think he punishes honesty.
Thank you again, Marioneth, for your perceptive review.
Mia  |
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