I'm doing Jury Service at the moment - fascinating, and I take it very seriously.
Coincidentally, I heard the educationalists' expression 'restorative justice' for the first time today.
Being cynical, I see the term ( and the promotion of what it is supposed to mean) as a vain attempt to rescue value from our increasingly lawless society.
Hence the poem below.
No bearing on any actual 'case' I hasten to add, otherwise I'd be banged up for a few days for 'Contempt of Court'!
I'm not a 'politico' by the way - just occasionally get fired up by what I see as nonsense!
Ho! All comments welcome - on the poem, not the politics, please! (inseparable?!)
Cheers!
John
Restorative Justice
Out on the street
Meek as a lamb
He was asking for it
He was mincemeat Man
Here in the court
Arrogant smirk
Counts for naught
He’s a loser jerk
Convicted of murder
He hangs his head
Can’t go much further
I’d rather be dead
Went to the grave
Of his victim last Sunday
Sorry he said
But tomorrow
Is just another bloody Monday
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Written by Fledermaus (3301 comments posted) 20th May 2008 | I think it's an issue people will argue about forever. The good of the individual or the good of the many, the rights of the convict or the rights of the victim. Are people evil or good by nature?
Where the system itself is concerned, I personally think that the law in our western European societies is too little about justice and too much about a silly political game played between the prosecutor, the lawyer and the judge. That doesn't mean I favor the American system though, for while a jury may have a fresh look on things, they are usually also far less experienced than a judge annd may be led by emotions rather than reason.
A bit of a dilemma: Fresh, but untrained people (the US system) or a professional that may well be living in an ivory tower (the European system).
According to a certain Han Fei, who lived over 2000 years ago, the main idea was simple: Punish those who do wrong and reward those who do right (the two handles of the ruler). Unfortunately for the man himself though, it was decided that he had probably done something wrong... |
Written by Josie (2785 comments posted) 20th May 2008 | | Yes, John, all too often these days there seems no sense of shame for what has been done. I am not sure that putting people in prison is the only thing to try. Why not bring back the stocks. Put people who have done dreadful things in society be seen and shamed - but I rather think that some of the society might do more than just see them. I could be tempted to lock up the man in Austria in his own cellar and throw away the key. After all, nobody could hear him from outside. But Christians are supposed to forgive. As for me, I just don't know. | An interesting poem
Written by Papule (18 comments posted) 20th May 2008 | | First of all I shall say I have enjoyed the poem very much. As for restorative justice and how to treat offenders is the matter of chicken and egg. Punishing offenders is plausible for the public, but did punishment bring any good result? The Russian writer Fyodor Dostoyevsky, in his book Crime and Punishment, argues that punishment brings more crime. We have not to forget that prisons are academies of crime; as many young people enter that academy with trivial offences and come out as graduate criminals. How European governments deal with offenders may not make everybody happy on the street, however, locking people in prisons does not bring a desirable result either. There should be a balance between crime and punishment, as a proverb says, ‘you should neither burn the Kebab nor the Skewer’. | Dostoyevski!
Written by Katanga (1229 comments posted) 20th May 2008 | Thank you Fled, Josie and Papule . . . I'm chuffed to have such long and thoughtful reviews, unlike the usual 'Nice one, Mate!' if you know what I mean!?
Fled - I particularly appreciate your implied 'Catch 22' at the end of your review. I shall investigate further!
Josie - Christian forgiveness is a concept with which I have wrestled and finally given up. I mean who can forgive God for all the atrocities He has allowed?
China earthquake, Burma, Bus hits tree near Tower Bridge . . . never ends.
And yes, before you might ask, I have read 'The Problem of Pain' by C.S.Lewis. Know it? I'm afraid I wasn't convinced . . .
And it strikes me that if we are 'obliged' to forgive everything then this is meaningless - i.e.we may as well forgive nothing at all.
But then that is very dangerous . . .
Still confused at 51 . . . !
Sorry, waxing heavy . . .
Papule - Wow! 'Crime and Punishment' is my number-one ethical thought-provoking must-read of all time!
Did you see John Hurt in the original T.V. version (not the most recent one, which was terrible IMHO!)?
Nail on the head is what you've hit!
I feel a poem coming on about 'The Kebab and the Skewer' along the lines of 'The Owl and the Pussycat'.
Ha! Ha! Much appreciated - Beware!
Katanga aka Tolstoy aka John X |
Written by mia_ms_kim (1019 comments posted) 20th May 2008 | I can see how furious you are, John. I'm actually dumbfounded at the capacity for evil human beings have.
Is evil sickness? I've asked the question before. If so, does it mean we shouldn't punish evil since they are 'sick' people? Pedophiles and sociopathics etc are labeled sick by psychiatrists, but we punish them and lock them up when they offend, and rightly so.
Forgiving people doesn't mean excusing them. If all parents excused their children when they do wrong, we would produce a delinquint generation. Exacting punishment, I believe, gives offenders dignity and ownership over their lives and their offences.
As for human suffering and God - I don't understand it. But I believe the scales of justice will be leveled one day, if not in this life then afterwards, for the oppressed as well as for the evil. Meanwhile I think the rich must foot the bill for the poor, that's divine social justice, as far as I can see.
Ah, John... You are asking unanswerable questions....
Mia  | Thought Provoking!
Written by beatricelouise (215 comments posted) 20th May 2008 | The poem is chilling, stalking and filled with horror. Just everyday life these days.
I think the justice system stinks here in North America. I assume it is similar in the U.K. A slap on the hand, or an insane moment which nobody would assume deserves punish. Counselling is the answer they say. But, wake up and smell the coffee.
I advocate an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Punishment is justifiable. My only concern with it, is make sure you have the right person before he sits in the gas chamber. |
Written by Fledermaus (3301 comments posted) 21st May 2008 | Just had to come back to this. While taking some courses in Chinese philosophy some time ago, an interesting debate between the Confucianist and Legalist views emerged: Legalism is about those two handles I mentioned, which translated to our modern views would translate into behaviourism, Pavlov's dogs etc. Scare people enough and they won't commit crimes... Effictive, but not very pleasant.
Confucianism on the other hand argued that people should do good because it is moral rather than because they are forced to. So people shouldn't be good just because they fear punishment, but rather because they want to be good people. Seems like a much more desirable way to me, but how can that be achieved?
A most interesting issue you addressed. | Worrying piece
Written by Bottleblondesurfer (3362 comments posted) 21st May 2008 | A very thought provoking piece, you put your message across with such honest anger that I found myself carried along with it.
It was a bleak reaction but I was reassured by the fact that you offered no solution. I am always worried when desperate solutions are trotted out. There are no simplistic solutions- locking up, eye for eye are just concentrating on the perpetrator and blaming him when the truth is we are all to blame.We get the society we deserve.
We can't lock ourselves away in our safe little areas and expect things to be fine. It creates a fractured society.
We lock up more young people than any other country except for Ukraine and re-offending rates rise further and we are no safer. It's not someone else's problem..
You seem to be enmeshed in our legal system at present so I'll leave you with a saying
"Distrust all those in whom the urge to punish is strong." Goethe,
We need to look both ways
Good poem by the way
jane
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Written by Phil (6730 comments posted) 25th May 2008 | Thought the poem simple, to the point and effective. Like Jane, I was glad you didn't trot out a simple (and likely flawed) solution like a politician in search of votes.
Some of the responses are more than a little interesting - and in one case a little worrying.
Phil |
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