I have posted this before it crumbles into dust with the ancients whose story engendered it .
That he should weep for her?
Here on the headland where the black ships passed,
where the pentekonters battled the winter gales,
mother dog still keeps watch from her lonely grave,
too late now to guard her regal litter,
her heroes, her seeresses, her slaughtered ones.
When the sea surrendered the body of her youngest son,
murdered for the treasures she had left with him
hoping to ensure his safety after the carnage,
her spirit broke.
The madness that she had held in check
when a virgin daughter's blood was spilt before his tomb
to speed the ghost of a murderous general on its way
to his new found home among the whimpering shades,
now clawed its way forth and bloodied the treacherous cheeks
when she ripped out the eyes of her final enemy.
That scene played, but unknowing of the fate
that still awaited that daughter accursed by derided truths,
she killed herself.
A kindlier conqueror gave her the last rites,
setting her tomb above the narrow seas
that had brought his own ships to her city's ruin.
Even now, the queen who has become the bitch goddess
looks on the waters and waits forever on the headland.
All mortal martial glories have long since disappeared
from both conquerors and conquered.
Myths alone remain.
In them she has been reviled not as a caring mother
but as a rabid bitch who murdered for revenge.
So what is she to us? Little more than a phrase
that epitomises man's inhumanity to man
and echoes chiasmic in thespian hypocrisy.
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what's Hecuba to him Written by fellpony (1821 comments posted) 30th June 2008 |
or he to Hecuba? The first stanzas gave me that authentic prickle ... the voice of the bard reciting history. I'm still unsure I've got all of it pinned down (you really made me work here) but it must be Hecuba, wife of Priam of Troy, who is your "mother dog/bitch goddess". Like most high-born women of the period (no matter whose accounts you read) she had a tough life. 19 children and many of them sacrificed or murdered. Clytemnestra in the Greek camp fared a little better but only by taking a lover and murdering her husband; she too lost children. I wonder if the poem would be stronger without the last 8 lines? the earlier ones are grand stuff. |
Written by Veronica_Milvus (794 comments posted) 30th June 2008 |
oh pj, my lack of classical education is showing. I'm glad Fellpony is here to give me a clue. I did Spanish instead of Latin. Is a pentekonter a) a town in Aberdeenshire? b) a specialised type of pentameter? c) one up from a quinquireme? I'll comment further when I know what I'm talking about. Don't hold your breath! VM |
Written by Phil (7169 comments posted) 30th June 2008 |
My knowledge of ancient history and mythology do not stretch to this. A quick Wiki read filled in a little. The poor woman had it tough - so to be remembered as she is - it seems - is perhaps a little unfair. I wonder what it is that drags poets back to tales such as these - other than the fact they are, for many, the first tales, almost seeds for themes and stories that have come since. I was coincidentally thinking the same thing last night (about poets being drawn to the ancients) when I read Dover Beach - a favourite. Just goes to show. Lots to think on here. I like it. Took a little foot slog, but there's nothing wrong in that - in fact plenty to be said for it. Phil |
Written by ainsel (68 comments posted) 30th June 2008 |
There's a kind of inevitability about epic, which drives the narrative on towards an inescapable conclusion. Even though this is just a small part of a larger story, I find it has that quality. Very moving, though, and beautifully constructed. I'm in two minds about fellpony's suggestion - there seems to be a natural ending to the structure with the return to the grave on the headland, but there's something in the last few lines that adds another layer. The other side of that, of course, is that "mortal martial glory" continues to cause horrible suffering in the present day. I'm not sure about how the title fits in - is it a quote from Homer or one of the other poets? fellpony - I always had a sneaking sympathy for Clytemnestra. ainsel |
Like Sue Written by Brett (1113 comments posted) 30th June 2008 |
The first thing that sprang to my mind was that scene from Hamlet! But 'regal litter' really spelt Hecuba's offspring. At first some of the phrases felt a little too coarse to me, but on reflection it was hardly a time of roses was it?! Enjoyed it though. |
I liked this Written by Talisker (1338 comments posted) 30th June 2008 |
But it is not "of your best" for me Brian. Perhaps it is my aversion to the myth "rechauffe" or "cauld kail het up" as the Scots have it. There are some fine lines, I tend to agree with Sue that the last eight are not as good as the first fifteen. Anyhow, you write with prodigious talent and I am in awe. I set the bar high for you though! Oli |
I suppose... Written by patterjack (1435 comments posted) 30th June 2008 |
... that theatre connections kept the Hamlet quote firmly fixed in my mind . I always found the second part of the quote i.e. he to Hecuba to be the more interesting , as a partial insight into the Player's role , into Hamlet's character , and thereby into the mind and attitudes of the bard himself. It is remarkably distancing I think. patterjack |
Written by mia_ms_kim (1057 comments posted) 30th June 2008 |
Being totally ignorant of the subject matter, I can only say, the poem painted a vivid picture for me of the progression of the tale and I could feel the almost dreamy "ancientness" of it. (And what a "bloody" tale!) It was easy to be immersed in each scene. The last 8 lines of poet's commentary, added to the poem the feel of wise story-telling by an elder or a sage etc, a practice many cultures adopt in passing on generational history and wisdom to the younger people. Maybe at the same time, the reflection took away from the immediacy of the vivid tale, too. I can see why ainsel is in two minds about it. Mia |
Written by Fledermaus (3615 comments posted) 1st July 2008 |
I would love to know which myth you had in mind, for I could think up several. At first I thought of Clytemnestra, but then if this was Greek mythology, she had to be someone on the other side of the Aegean, so for now I do take it that Sue gots it right. Wonderfully written. The style, the content, and the letting us readers guess as to whom she is... Great piece indeed! |
Thanks FP Written by patterjack (1435 comments posted) 1st July 2008 |
Glad you liked the opening stanza ( btw -- the poem is deliberately shaped -- something my postings could not achieve a while ago ! ) Hecuba it was , of course -- and though her fate , as in so many Greek myths was , not always recorded as having the same set of circumstances from narration to narration , she has been one of those side stories that fascinate me . There are others that would make good bases for poems -- and relationships too-- Clytaemnestra and Helen for one. The last eight lines ? There are two fairly personal concepts there that I would prefer to retain patterjack
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not to worry Veronica Written by patterjack (1435 comments posted) 1st July 2008 |
... fighting one's way through the tangled maze of Greek mythology is okay for some-- say Robert Graves -- but every now and then I run into a complexity that is beyond me , throw up my hands and give it away for a while ! patterjack |
Coarse? Written by patterjack (1435 comments posted) 1st July 2008 |
Brett, you should know that I just hate anything coarse -- except intercourse . Cynossema orThe Bitch's Tomb is the name given by the Greek sailors to Hecuba's burial place Bit puzzled why anything else might be deemed coarse But I am glad you enjoyed it patterjack |
Don't change it Written by Bottleblondesurfer (3713 comments posted) 1st July 2008 |
I’ve done the homework and now feel I can comment on this. I must say I can understand why people get drawn back the Greek myths. It really is all there in an impossibly huge scale . Everything is bigger, wilder, more extreme. Characters are in the brightest Technicolor. The heroes are the bravest and strongest and the villains are the most dangerous and heartless. They are all totally driven by their passions. The setbacks they have to face are huge in size and number and yet they battle on [or die horribly] I’m sure there must be a vicarious thrill in writing about those mythical people. I do think you did Hecuba justice, here. It was a vivid piece of writing and you explained it all beautifully, with style and elegance. I must stand up for those last 8 lines which I think, only a true poet would add. For me they add the one thing that is missing from those wild myths; a bit of humanity – the human perspective. It pulls us back to what we are as people. I’m not explaining myself too well, I know. Anyway I think those lines are essential to the poem, they allow us to look back at the rest of it with some greater perspective.. Sometimes when I am reading some heroic poem or watch a film about the great and the good and see some poor little soul thoughtlessly dispatched I often wonder what his story was. We might watch in awe at the wild antics of the Gods but we have our stories too. I’m sure this doesn’t make much sense but I just wanted to say I really liked the poem Cheers jane
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Agree with Jane Written by Brett (1113 comments posted) 1st July 2008 |
regarding those last eight lines, I think that without them we are left with (no matter how well written) an impersonal account. '...reviled not as a caring mother' I think is the phrase that gives weight to the humanity that Jane spoke of. As for my previous comment regarding coarsness ; of course it is not coarse for your only course to be intercourse. I'm not saying that after the next sip. Cheers |
Phil -history and myth Written by patterjack (1435 comments posted) 1st July 2008 |
There are , Phil , nooks and crannies to be found in many old myths and legends where some person with an inclination towards verse or poetry can lodge, many of them being not so much precursors of themes -- but the tapping into of the universal from another angle . Minor characters are swept aside in the grandeur of the original, but an exploration of these side issues is often very rewarding I am glad you made the effort -- and I appreciate that ! patterjack |
That quote, ainsel , Written by patterjack (1435 comments posted) 1st July 2008 |
... was just me latching on to what is often an irrelevancy -- but which , like the proverbial Bathurst Burr , sticks annoyingly . It annoyed me into thinking about the lady -- who , as Phil said , had it tough. The Trojan women -- and indeed women in all wars -- are a basic subject for sympathetic thinking. Hence my envoi type lines. patterjack |
Backing off Written by patterjack (1435 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
Yes Mia , that is what I was doing -- a sort of personal resolution of the situation -- a wind down after the climax -- I don't think it entirely wise to finish on an overdramatic point-- drama training again I guess -- but that's not an infallible rule . patterjack |
You make good sense Jane Written by patterjack (1435 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
True , the story of Hecuba is also told in blood --not the massive quantities that are spilled throughout the Iliad -- but I found her story most affecting -- gruesome in places , but still very human. Thank you for your insightful comments . patterjack |
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