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Written by Robru (219 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
| Well Josie, this one meets with my approval except for the Methodist bit at the end. My religious upbringing was as Presbyterian, but in actual practice I spent most of my free time enjoying whatever Mother Nature had to offer. Now, at the latter end of my life I believe I made the right decision. |
Written by Mr_E_Writer (187 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
Hello Josie (no harm done).
Now I can see that this 'IS' a poem, but feel that I must pull you up over line 16.
In order to meet the required beat and rhyme, you have, in my opinion, arrived at the rather curious statement: "I was assembled on display."
I (singular) was assembled! Would that be like an Airfix construction kit? Possibly a Mechano set? Not only a DIY child, but, worse still, everyone can see you being assembled because you're on display!
Perhaps I am wrong, but it just doesn't sound right to me.
Regards,
Eric. |
Written by Josie (2785 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
| Mr W - ha ha - you are absolutely right. I am gathered together heart and soul and voice I expect. I did write it originally as "we" and changed it, but was going back to do something when I've had to answer the phone. Changed in a tick. Thanks and I am glad you enjoyed it. This is absolutely the truth in this poem, and as soon as I was older, I changed to first Church of Canada (when I was in Vancouver), Church of Canada (in Edinburgh) and now Methodist/United Reformed. The simple church I feel. Jesus didn't hold with all this pomp and ceremony, and he was right against me having to learn things off by heart. (Says so especially to me in the Bible I believe). So, I have forfeited the communion wine for cherryade and discussions. Quite the right thing to do I think! |
Written by 1211kellie (165 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
An excellent piece as usual. Good rythmn and humour. I was never confirmed (well not in this way ha ha) but my husband was.
Enjoyed
Kellie  |
Sorry
Written by 1211kellie (165 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
Must learn how to spell rhythm!  |
Bravo!
Written by Talisker (1326 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
Although I make no secrets of my atheism these days Josie, I was brought up in the fold -a Roman Catholic as it happens.
Learning all those strange incantations which are part of the mass drove me wild too. Also I could never understand why reciting so many Hail Marys and Our Fathers and Glory Be To The Wotsits could earn you time off in purgatory! Seems like writing lines at school - a meaningless punishment.
Anyway, the rosary beads went in the pea-shooter and the rest is history.
You are right of course - if there is a God, I suppose he'll be multi-lingual, psychic, all-seeing, all knowing - a bit like the present Government I suppose. Ha ha.
Oli  |
Written by Fledermaus (3281 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
| Well, I do guess the main function of prayers is to get some sort of formula and take people's thoughts off the things around them. It seems all religions have them, no matter if they recite the Lord's prayer, Ave Maria, or suras, sutras or mantras... They probably do serve a purpose, for why else would people all over the world have learned them by heart for millenia? |
Written by Bottleblondesurfer (3351 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
Well done, josie, I thought this was a great effort at querying the religious rituals in such a succinct manner and in your usual perfect structure. Your vivid memories of Church is something I can sympathise with so well. In fact you may have inspired me to have a go myself. The memories are so strong
cheers
jane |
Written by Josie (2785 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
| Oli, in a nutshell, it is the ritual that is driving people away from some churches. The thing is that Jesus never told people to do any of this and he spoke to people in the simplicity of their villages, hillsides or by Lake Galilee. He never mentioned about dressing up in robes and carrying shepherd's crooks. To me, as a teenage girl from a simple village, I had never seen anything like it, and, like a teenager in a solemn place, I nearly burst into uncontrollable giggling, and the more you try to stop it, the worse it gets. The others were the same. Suddenly we could remember nothing except trying to control our giggles, under the stern eyes of the adults. ha ha. I'm sure God laughed too. I won't publish this poem in the C of E or Roman Catholic monthly magazine, ha ha. |
Written by Josie (2785 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
| Ah - Hello Jane. Thank you so much for your review. I think young people today are more questioning - well the old are too. You can see that I still question all the pomp and ceremony that goes on in various churches and synagoges. I would rather learn about good codes of conduct in a simple way, and I am sure Jesus would be a GW member if he were alive today, writing simply on the subject, but reaching the masses. ha ha. |
Written by Veronica_Milvus (626 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
Well, Josie, I liked this but I do question the view that you put in your intro that
"You don't need to understand them. They are the words of God."
I am sure that Moses and Jacob and Jesus himself did not have collects and litanies. Chanting the formula turns prayer into a mantra - interesting.
Good point.
And Oli, rosary beads in a pea-shooter! Fabulous and worthy of a poem. Hail Mary indeed! LOL |
Thanks Veronica
Written by Josie (2785 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
| In answer to your question, I said: ""By heart" - we teachers call it "rote learning" doesn't necessarily mean learning with understanding at all." To explain this, I meant that some rote learning doesn't have to have any logic, ie, who said that a should precede f, for example. You just have to learn the alphabet in the order in which it is, and the calendar in the same way and some other things. There was a time (when I did my teacher training) when "rote learning" (or just learning facts by heart instead of with reasoning) of any kind was a bad thing. So we had students who came to college and theyhadn't been taught their alphabet, so they coulnd't use a dictionary, or a telephone directory. The first thing I had to do was to teach them the alphabet. This is what I meant - not the Bible or the prayer book. Hope this helps you understand what I meant. |
Written by Josie (2785 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
| Oh dear: Excuse the typos above. I was typing fast in order to get to bed. ha ha. Goodnight! Also: "calendar". |
Written by mia_ms_kim (1017 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
As a young Christian I, too, rejected churcfh tradition that has elaborate forms with little substance. (Something Jesus himself condemned with rather acidic words, I think, concerning religious establishments of his own days.) I still find the emphasis on the external paraphanelia in the church such as religious clothing and ceremony etc, unbiblical, irrelevant and lacking reality.
But I have to say, as someone who comes from the other side of the church (modern charismatic movement that gives a lot of room for personal expression with little concern for form), I find some things the old church has to offer worthy of revival, especially literature and songs and discipline. There is depth and weight to some of the old material and practice that seems to be lacking in the modern church life. I am all for taking the best of the old and new.
That's how I read this poem, Josie!
Mia |
Modern What?
Written by Katanga (1217 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
Hmmmmmm! Sorry, but what religion do you follow?
I think Josie has been very brave to declare herself a Methodist.
I declare myself an 'agnostic', but I am very uncomfortable sitting on the fence.
Yet this is what thinking, and poetry, is all about.
So be it.
Or do I mean, "Let it be."?
Let's see . . .
Cheers!
John X |
Clarification...
Written by mia_ms_kim (1017 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
Hi, John.
Were you addressing me in your last posting on this poem? If so, I thought I should clarify that I am basically agreeing with Josie, and just adding my own experience as a fellow Christian, which pretty much parrallels Josie's experience and thoughts, I think.
I've expressed some extra thoughts as a younger person who has more experience with the "traditionless" churches as opposed to traditional ones. (I've been part of both.)
I'm confused by the question "what religion do you follow?" I thought it was obvious from my review that I'm a Christian??? I don't exactly know how else to categorise myself beyond what I've already mentioned??? But if you are asking what a charismatic Christian is, it is something like this: fundamental belief is the same as the mainline church, but the difference in practise marked by modern songs, emphasis on personal experience, spiritual empowering, individual pursuit of God etc etc - it has its good and bad like everything else.
Sorry, if this wasn't what you were after, John. Maybe in addressing Josie as a fellow Christain, I assumed everyone will know what I'm talking about.
Mia |
It's nothing but...
Written by patterjack (1193 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
... sects sects sects to me
patterjack |
Written by Josie (2785 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
| Oh Patterjack - is that your review of my poem? ha ha For me, I have to go along with what Mia has said, but I do go to a very simple family service at my church. There is nothing that comes from a book. The people organize the whole thing and they put in a great deal of thought. It is packed with youngsters and their parents. It is very modern, but I then like to hear the traditional service on the radio, and especially to hear the old hymns which I learnt "by heart" for they have a real beauty both in music and words. We have to remember that the traditional services did bring out the great writers of church music, and this is where we find the lovely choirs, so I guess it would be a shame to see it all go. Thanks for your thoughts. I think I may put this in the children's sections as teachers go there and this would make a good discussion in classrooms. |
`Old joke
Written by patterjack (1193 comments posted) 2nd July 2008 |
So not a review-- except as a review of the reviews.
patterjack |
HI Josie
Written by jean.day (2279 comments posted) 3rd July 2008 |
| I am one of those who memorised all sorts of required prayers as a child - and many of them I still know and use - but others I have lost from choice. But I set myself the task when I was having trouble sleeping, to rewrite all the ones that we traditionally say in modern words (and much shorter) and I found it quite a fun thing to do. "Hey - Mary - Had a Son? Well done" - that sort of thing. But I do agree that it isn't the words so much as the mantra - and many other religions do the same thing. But what about football chants - a lot of the same idea, but nobody is critical of those. |
Written by JohnnyD (96 comments posted) 4th July 2008 |
There is a lovely story in our Hindu religion that depicts what you have written about Josie. I wish to share with you the story:
Once Lord Vishnu asked Naradmuni (the famous sage, who always starts his conversation with 'Narayan-Narayan' -meaning Lord Vishnu. He always considered himself to be the BEST LORD VISHNU worshipper / devotee in all the three worlds.
One day, Naradmuni asks Lord Vishnu as to who is his favourite worshipper / devotee? Lord Vishnu shows a poor peasant ploughing the field and at the end of the day before going to his bed utters - Thank you Lord for everything! Naradmuni gets very furious and challenges Lord Vishnu as to how callous he can be to say the poor farmer was the BEST DEVOTEE. Also Naradmuni claims that he is the BEST DEVOTEE because he utters -'Narayan-Narayan' all the time.
Lord Vishnu calmly says, "If you will pass one test, I will declare you to be my BEST DEVOTEE. Are you ready for the test?" He agrees. Lord Vishnu gives Naradmuni a pot filled with oil upto the brim and says, go around the three worlds uttering my name every second. However, make sure even a drop of the oil in the pot should not fall. Naradmuni was so over-confident about his devotion of the Lord says it is such a simple test.
Naradmuni returns finally and proudly proclaims that not even a drop of the oil had dropped. Lord Vishnu asks him how many times did he utter Lord's name? Naradmuni says, "Lord all my attention was on the oil and do you think it was easy for me to utter your name every second?" Lord Vishnu smiles.
Lord Vishnu says, "Narad, the poor farmer works all day long so hard to earn his bread but before sleeping, he always thank me for giving him the strength to earn his bread without any complains. I am sure you have learnt your lesson now and will agree with him why the poor farmer is my BEST DEVOTEE!" Naradmuni's head hungs in shame and asks Lord's forgiveness for over-estimating his devotion.
I do hope you will like the story that we have enjoyed so much during our childhood. I wish people will read it and enjoy it too.
|
Thank you Jean and Johnny
Written by Josie (2785 comments posted) 4th July 2008 |
| Thank you both. Both of your reviews contained interesting facts that I am sure GW readers will enjoy. It was particularly interesting to hear your story Johnny as I know that other faiths too do learning by heart. The thing about the Christian faith is this. Initially it was one very poor man (didn't even own a bed of his own) who went around the countryside speaking in such simple language that anyone could understand it. To help reinforce what important things he taught, he used simple stories (such as the Good Samaritan etc) and he mainly had the simple clothes that he wore. Yet, from this one simple man, the Christian faith spread. Did he tell people to wear robes, chant learned words? No. He only taught us one simple prayer which most people know: Our Father etc. Such a simple prayer yet it covers everything. So where has everything else come from? In fact Jesus never drove or encouraged people into churches or synagogues. He went out to where they were in the fields and villages. So where has all of the pomp and ceremony come from and why? I think this discussion could go on forever. ha ha Sue - you may be sorry you chose "By Heart" for this month. |
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