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Non-Fiction
Poetry and patterjack
By patterjack
08 November 2006
Too long to put under Josie's entry -- anyway , it's not exactly on topic .

I have expressed similar to others in private mail .


Poetry and patterjack

In my long experience of teaching literature I have probably had more failures than successes in working with poetry , individual poems and sometimes poets . However , I will stick my neck out and try to deal rationally with what is at base a subject fraught with emotion.

Some personal stories first as a background , the relevance of which will I hope become apparent later.

In primary school for instance I remember being taught Daffodils by Wordsworth . I need to point out that where , while travelling in Ireland , I actually saw that physical host of golden daffodils , it is something that you would be hard put to find in Australia . What was the point of teaching me something totally irrelevant to my way of life, and moreover suggesting that it was a thing of beauty far beyond the nature of Australia ? The nearest I got to that native beauty was hearing Dorothea Mackellar's My Country . The riproaring Bush Ballads were looked down upon . We got instead something more melancholy , like Shirley's Death the Leveller , great fare for an eleven year old !

I found for myself in a couple of childrens' annuals such poems as Vitae Lampada , The Fighting Temeraire and Drake's Drum , and the odd poem by Masefield , and thus was suitably indoctrinated into the Australian cultural cringe before the Empire's magnificence. There were no Jindyworobaks to adulterate it . Thank goodness for Shakespeare in my early High School years.

The real breakthrough for me , although I did not realise it at the time , came in my Fourth Year. Our lady English teacher asked which poem we would like to deal with from our set anthology. There was a teacher in the school called Mr Khan , so a couple of the more boisterous lads demanded that we read Kubla Khan .

I had no idea what it meant , but it took me and shook me to the core . It was not for years that I came to the realisation that it was a poem about poetry . Its influence stayed with me , and though I dealt with Australian poets ( once again very much under the influence of their English predecessors ) for my last High School examinations , the underlying effect remained even in my University years.

To digress for a moment to my second story . Years later still , lecturing in literature at a Teachers' College , I met up with an old acquaintance who had left the college scene to become an inspector of schools . He told me of a school where he had been inspecting , and of a primary class that was totally enthusiastic about poems and poetry , albeit of children's verse standard , not like what I had been taught. However , they would write , quote , talk about poetry for as long as he wished . The teacher was happy for them to do so.

My friend had to return the next year , and saw the same group of children who had advanced once class and had a different teacher . After sitting through two days of lessons , my friend asked whether there would be a poetry lesson , to be told :Oh these children don't like poetry .

Draw your own conclusion.

I think it is time that I put forward some of my own views on what makes poetry . This is a formidable task , and many a critic has stumbled over it. Thus I beg forbearance for what are essentially purely personal views .

First , let us look at the process of poetry writing .

Suppose a person is inspired to write a poem about a particular object . I use the word object here in its widest possible application : an actual thing or person ; an abstract emotion ; a rational idea to be explored. Whatever , let us accept that there is an object.

No two people ever see the same object . Ask me to imagine a tree and I immediately think of the tree I wrote of in Maternal Grandfather . You , the reader have never seen it , and so you would imagine your own tree .

The observer takes that observed object into his own mind -- and there it is mingled with the thousands of other ideas , beliefs , preconceptions that exist there. ( this is the Livingstone Lowes idea of the deep well of the subconscious , where disparate objects are often inextricably linked together).

So , the object becomes subjective to the poet . Then the poet objectifies it once more in a poem , obviously modified by the subconscious.

So now we have an object external , even , to the poet himself , which the reader takes into his own mind , where once again it goes through the process of being made subjective , and linked to the reader's own thousands of internal relationships.

Diagrammatically thus: Object --> subjectified by the poet --> made object --> subjectified by the reader .

The process can be taken further if we try to explain our version of the poem .

It is no wonder that a poem can affect different people in so many different ways , and can have so many different meanings .

Again , it is no wonder that so many teachers of poetry , rather than trying to elicit any form of meaning from the material , resort in despair to syllable counting for the sake of what they mistakenly refer to as rhythm when they mean metre, identifying figures of speech and counting those instead of looking to see what they mean , worrying out the mechanics rather than the soul of the work .

For many years I have explored with students the Dylan Thomas poem A Refusal To Mourn The Death By Fire Of A Child In London. Never once in those explorations have the students failed to come up with a new aspect , because there are so many layers of meaning to be teased out . They enlightened me as much as, hopefully , I enlightened them .

Yet, paradoxically , here I can best recommend the poem by Archibald MacLeish :Ars Poetica

Briefly now :

For me the poetry lies basically in the image presented ( See T.E Hulme , the Imagist poet, for five prime examples ).

If the images are strung coherently together to form an argument , all to the good but sometimes a melange can be a better thing still .

If the argument contributes to the illumination of man's being , best of all .

That leaves us with structure .

If the thought can be fitted into a traditional structure , that's fine . Some poems gain strength from it.

Sometimes that structure can be deliberately shattered , and there is no reason why not if it serves the poet's purpose .

A caveat here . The use of structure or its shattering should be deliberate and skilful, as there is nothing worse to my mind than jarring rhymes and broken metres.

Rhythm I will say only this about -- it involves the cadence of the lines , and can be strict , loose , conversational , come what may . It is best described by Sitwell when she said Rhythm is melody stripped of its pitch , and it is best to remember that our rhythms differ very much from person to person.

The teaching of poetry ?

If you are a good teacher there are a multitude of ways that people can be persuaded to appreciate poetry , even write it themselves . But teaching is a very interpersonal thing .

There are no rules for this . Every teacher will find his / her own way , but I personally believe that the teacher's enthusiasm is a major contributing factor .

Reviews

Written by ellipinnock (1784 comments posted) 8th November 2006
Interesting, Josie's post has certainly sparked a lot of attention. I have to say Ars poetica is an absolutely fantastic poem- I was only introduced to it recently but found it absorbing and fascinating.  
 
I think you're right, enthuisiasm is the key. 
 
Elli
Enthusiasm.
Written by Josie (2844 comments posted) 8th November 2006
Goodness, I didn't know when I put the flame to paper what was coming Brian, but all this psychology will bring my mind to life this miserable November morning. I think that the man who was talking, in my article, should have met you. From the bit I wrote of him, he had no enthusiasm (but perhaps that changed later) and his fright certainly didn't light a flame for his students. I certainly think that the personality of the teacher has a lot to do with it, and when you have someone who is enthusiastic about something and put them with others, then often the enthusiasm rubs off. When I go into one of our local schools, perhaps, there is one particular teacher who is so enthusiastic about poetry. Therefore his pupils are too. Although they like to hear my poems, what is much more important is that I hear what they have written, and it does your heart good to see their shining eyes and enthusiasm for what they have written, whether I consider it good writing or not. That is not important at all at this point of their lives. This is where the joy of poetry comes from when stimulating children isn't it? Bringing out the enthusiasm! I notice Brian that you often mention poetry that you read when you were a boy. This is where the love of poetry has to start if it is to continue until later in life. Well done and so interesting! So we must remember, in our reviews, not to kill off any enthusiasm that people may have in their poetry writing by trite poem-killing comments I think. They have written what they have enjoyed (usually). I wish we had children who wrote poems for the children's section too. Thank you so much Brian.
To put the cat amongst the pigeon...
Written by Talisker (1331 comments posted) 8th November 2006
I'm somewhat sceptical about the notion of "teaching" poetry, as if it is a craft rather than an art. 
 
I've no problem with the above per se PJ. But it puts me in mind of the Suzuki method of teaching violin, or perhaps paint-by-numbers. How can one teach soul, heart, finer understanding. Can't we say that you have it or you don't?  
 
There's a bit of the charlatan's charter about this. Sorry if that sounds presumptious or snobbish.  
 
I know that teachers in school are asked to imbue an appreciation of the finer things - probably mostly pearls to the swine. The poetry of many of the younger contributors on this site is beginning to resemble phone texting to me. A "taught" poet to me will always be a Vanessa Mae to my preferred Yehudi Menuhin. 
 
Oli :roll
charlatan's charter
Written by patterjack (1430 comments posted) 8th November 2006
 Can't we say that you have it or you don't ?[i/] 
 
Who is the referent for the word[I]you
? teacher or pupil ? 
 
Assume the child has it -- whatever you mean by that . 
 
If the child has an innate appreciation for or a skill in writing poetry then a teacher , as was obvious from my example , can encourage or quell that enthusiasm . 
 
If the child has little or no appreciation of poetry , patient enthusiasm on the part of the teacher will hopefully bring some enlightenment as the child is given more opportunity to read , or as I found very useful , perform poems . He may never actually write brilliantly , but he may well try his best . 
 
Nowhere in the above have I suggested a method of teaching children how to be a poet. At the most , when I was teaching , I could correct grammar, question the structure ,the use of particular words , the thought process etc. 
 
I did play word games , set up physical situations where they were encouraged to use images that were not cliches . 
 
I tried to give them some craft skills to express their own art .  
Few poets that I have heard of were perfect artists from the start of their writing . See Chaucer -- the life so short , the art so long to learn .  
 
I do rather resent the charlatan's charter comment .  
 
Related to my style of teaching of which you know nothing it is presumptuous . And it does smack of snobbery . 
 
I taught word skills , which may have helped the children go away and write their own poems. If they did I praised where praise was due . 
 
And I hope I taught them to read their own work critically in the hope of self improvement , not improving it via something imposed by me from outside . 
 
patterjack 
 
A layperson's reaction
Written by Bottleblondesurfer (3559 comments posted) 8th November 2006
I have read Josie' s post and your post on poetry with interest but have not felt qualified to comment. I admit I struggle with poetry on the forum and this discussion has been helpful to me. I would not have commented at all if it wasn't for Taliskers pretentious and arrogant comments. He is an amatuer and to be so dissmissive of a professional who has spent years writing,teaching, and studying poetry is hubris right off the scale. A charlatan's charter?? Bloody cheek I say. If you don't know have the sense to keep quiet 
Cheers 
BBS

Written by Phil (6959 comments posted) 8th November 2006
All I can say is that I enjoy teaching poetry, not on your grand scale Brian, (9, 10 and 11 year olds) and that most children also enjoy it. The art/skill/craft/whatever of peeling back layers and making links to reveal meaning has to be taught in the first place before the kid can go on to do this for himself. 
 
I try to expose them to the widest range of poetry I can. This is both encouraged and limited by government meddling. 
 
As for writing poetry - when I try, I often haven't a clue when I start out about structure and such. It develops as I write. I tend to go by the sound of it. As I tend to write pieces with no set structure, I often think of it as the pulse rather than the rhythm. Some of the things you've written may help me. Personally, I do think skills and craft can be taught and learned. It's what's done with them that turn them into art or nonsense. 
 
All the best, 
 
Phil.
revealing
Written by fellpony (1702 comments posted) 17th March 2008
I had not read this before - but agree that Brian is well qualified to discuss the subject of teaching poetic appreciation as well as encouraging students (of diverse ages) to try to write for themselves.

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