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Dear God - Two
By johniebg
11 July 2007

Seeing as it has been almost three whole days since we last had a post that mentioned God, I thought it about time the void was filled. This is part two of the 'God Dialogues'. Given the subject matter - managing to be interesting, informative and occasionally witty was bloody hard work. But I think it is there ... you may disagree. I hope you enjoy.


Dear God

There really is no need to be that formal you know ...

You're here ... !

Of course I am.

I was beginning to think that the other day was maybe like a dream?

Really?

Yes ...

And was it?

I don't think so, we are here talking again.

We are. Which means?

That I am either dreaming, this is real or I am on a verge of a mental breakdown ...

Ha ha ... and which do you think is the most likely?

Well, I don't tend to remember dreams but remember all of our last conversation, so dreams are ruled out.

And ...

Mental breakdown is a possibility, life really is a bitch sometimes you know! But I kind of feel that I am just about hanging onto sanity.

Possibly ...

So I guess this must be real?

I am glad we sorted that out. What's on your mind my friend?

Well, since we last spoke I have been thinking quite a lot.

That makes a nice change ... how is that working for you?

Well ... I have been reading my Bible quite a lot more ...

Oh dear ... things were looking so promising!

What do you mean?

It doesn't matter ... so what have you learned from your Bible?

Well ... this is my point. Now that I am actually reading the Bible, it all seems a little confusing?

No kidding!

You are not taking me seriously!

Oh I am .. trust me.

Okay then ...

So what's confusing you?

Well for a start, from our conversations you seem fairly benign and dare I say, pretty secular?

What's a secular?

Oh .. you don't know?

Would I ask .. ?

... it's kind of like a world view. A view that sees everything without religion's blinkers?

Religions are blinkered ?

Urrmnnn ... well yes that is the thought. One religion sees the world from its own perspective, while another religion will see it from another. A secular view sees everything for what it is ...

Very interesting.

Why?

That this word secular even happens to be in your vocabulary for a start.

I don't understand?

Well surely, if religion is a product of god's intentions you would imagine that religion would be considered secular by its very nature!

Ummn ... that's a very good point!

I have obviously been slacking!

You obviously have ...

Obviously ... now continue.

I have forgotten where we were ?

You were telling me how kind and caring I am, and that I apparently have a surprisingly global view of all things ...

Right ...

So go on ... the confusing Bible ?

Oh yes! Well ... the Old Testament makes for pretty desperate reading. I am not really sure how to put this ... it's kind of difficult to verbalise ...

Why don't you just spit it out and we will worry about the semantics later ...

Okay then ... well, it seems like, well it just seems like you spent the whole of the Old Testament beating up on Jews ... and they were the only ones worshipping you.

INFIDEL! I command the ravages of the worlds plagues be visited upon your mortal flesh, that the predators of this earth hunt down your kin and their kin, and their kin after that and of those that survive, may Satan tempt them towards the fires of damnation ...

... !?

...

... ??

You there?

Yes God, I am truly sorry, I meant no offence and beg your forgiveness ...

Get up!

What?

GET UP!

Sorry ...

For the last time stop apologising!

You can hardly blame me!

I was joking ... !

Well it wasn't funny!

Yes it was ... it has been a long time since a human hit the deck so fast ...

.. !! you're mean!

I suppose so, a little bit ...

So you didn't visit predators upon my kin?

Nope.

... so my mum is still happily painting landscapes?

Sure is!

And my dad reading Yachting monthly?

Well actually he is busy coming to terms with computer technology, joysticks and flight simulators.

Really?

Yup ..

Crikey, I should visit them more often.

Guess you should. So where were we ...

Well ... urrmnn .... beating up on Jews?

Oh yes. It looks like the Jews have had a pretty hard time of it, don't you think?

I would say so ...

Do you know who wrote the Old Testament my friend?

Urrrmnn ... you?

Okay! We have a problem.

What do you mean?

You really think I sat down and penned the bible?

Well yes, that is kind of the popular thought ..

You mean mankind has been invested with reasoning, which I might add is very unique in the whole evolutionary scheme of things, and the best you can come up with – is that something written over 2000 years ago must have been written by a supernatural being?

Well not you specifically maybe ... but by men commanded by your will!

Commanded by my will! You're kidding right? If you don't start thinking, and I mean real soon, plagues might start becoming a reality!

God!!?

No I am serious ...

I am really sorry ..

Well start thinking then!

Well ... you would have to admit, this is all just a little hard to comprehend!

Is it?

Well yes ...

Am I going to have to spell this out, as well?

I ... think so

Do you know what amazes me about humans?

What's that?

Six million years of human evolution, 2000 years of oppressive religious doctrine and you are still looking to the faeries for answers when they are staring right back at you from every page of that damn book!

... !??

Well think about it! What do you know about life 2000 years ago?

... it was hard?

You are right! And how hard?

Very ... women really were seen as conduits for the propagation of the species, five children were the minimum number to maintain population levels, and childbirth often meant the death of the mother ...

Don't stop ...

There was also no soap, no vaccinations, and bacteria would only be discovered 19 centuries later with the invention of the microscope. Which meant that at least half of all children born would be dead by the time they were ten and minor ailments in today's terms were common causes of their deaths.

You have been paying attention ...

... I thought it might be wise.

Mmmnnnn ... so, life 2000 years ago was ...

Hard!

So ...

Yes god ... ?

What do you think was the cause of this hardship?

In hindsight, it was just mankind's battle to survive with little actual knowledge of the world about them.

And what do you think it was like 2500 years ago?

The same ... even harder?

And in the absence of any knowledge of this world, what do you think the Jewish forefathers did?

Invent stories that explained this hard life?

Yes ...

.. and because they had no control over the world around them, they imagined it must be at the will of some supernatural force ... ?

Go on ...

So they came up with the idea of a god ... ?

There you go! How difficult was that?

Wow! I never thought of it like that .. !

Guess you didn't! So is that it?

I think so .. ?

You sure .. ?

What have I missed .. ?

Imagine yourself a male in this world 2500 years ago. You are fifteen. How long have you been a working adult?

Urrmnn .. crikey ... I don't suppose they had higher education in those days ...

Nope ...

So they would have been working at least two years?

And hard with it, usually following in the fathers footsteps. By the time you were fifteen you would probably be a skilled tradesman with 2-3 years experience, probably a wife and at least one child.

Wow!

How old do you think the wife would be ?

Guess she didn't get to collage either? Fifteen as well?

The minimum age for marriage was twelve, but it would probably be dependant, but not necessarily based on whether she had hit puberty!

Bloody hell! It's hard to take in ...

So imagine this male at thirty. Wife number one died when she was nineteen giving birth to their fifth child and he has had three by his second wife who is currently seventeen.

He must have been exhausted!

That's not the half of it!

No .. ?

Of his eight children only three have survived over the age of five and one of the three has reached the ripe old age of ten!

Hell ... !

So with these three children and second wife, what do you imagine his overriding emotion is?

... that's a tough one to drop on me. I would guess he would be devastated, but grateful that three had actually survived!

Actually death was an everyday occurrence! One dead wife and five dead children by the time you are thirty and he is grateful! Says a lot about how difficult it was, don't you think!

It's hard to comprehend.

Sure is. So how do you think our male is faring at the ripe old age of forty five?

Urrmmn .. Third wife, fourteen children, seven surviving?

And the male?

I would say looking forward to his pension ...

I would say probably dead at least two years. By the time he reached forty his body would have been so ravaged from work and scraping enough food to feed hungry mouths, and from disease he would die for no better reason than having worn out this body ...

Kind of takes the breath from you ...

So think about the stories of the Old testament now ...

Okay ...

And .. ?

What .. ?

What do they tell you?

That they detail the hardship of life in that time .. ?

And ...

That they offer some explanation for that hardship?

Go on . .. ?

... urrmmn that's it I think.

Really?

Well yes ...

So how do you factor in the human emotion of hope ?

Hope?

Yes ... you are not telling me that hope is not a key concept of your perception of life, are you?

Well, I ...

My friend, I sometimes wonder!!

What do you mean?

You really don't get it do you?

Well .. no.

If the Old Testaments details the hardship of life, what does it promise?

Life after death?

Nope, I think you will find that was popularised by Jesus.

Really?

Well Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi, so he would have been preaching his version of the Jewish doctrine, but Jesus was not an orthodox Jewish rabbi. So his concept of life after death was somewhat at odds with the traditional thoughts.

Jesus was Jewish?

Of course, What? Surely you didn't think he was English?

Well no ... but I didn't think Christians liked Jews, so I kinda thought ...

Oh the ironies of religion ... don't you worry yourself about Jesus right now, we will come to him in due course.

Okay.

So ... back to hope.

Right ...

What do you think kept people going?

Hungry mouths and a desire to live?

You're right ... but civilisations need more than that ... they need some mechanism to believe that it will be better for their children, that future times will not be so hard ... they need hope!

You mean salvation?

I suppose salvation is hope by another name.

This is amazing ... !

Is it .. ?

Totally!

So how do you think hope was manifested as a Jewish salvation my friend?

Urmmn ... I don't really know. I would have said that it was life after death, but you shouted at me last time!

I did ... So what salvation might the oppressed, struggling Jews have in mind?

I don't know?

What does the Old testament say?

Well typically it has figures like Moses: great men, warriors that lead the Jews from oppression?

And ..

Well ... are we talking about salvation through the Jewish Messiah?

We are ...

My spine is tingling ?

That's probably too much information.

No .. I mean like this has all been like some dark void before, a void that you are told to believe but nobody wants you to understand ... just to believe. And now I am standing here, learning all this, and it is like, like, it's like you that's teaching me!

You're standing?

What?

Why are you standing?

I wanted to be nearer you.

Oh for heavens sake, sit down and shut up!

Oh ...

Look. If you're going to start acting stupid and heaven forbid start worshipping me I am afraid you're going to spend the rest of your days on your knees praying to a patch of wallpaper, or even worse, the back of a wooden pew!

.. ??!?

Got that ... ?

Well I ...

Lets get on ...

Okay ...

Do you know what the Jewish messiah was meant to do for the Jews?

Wasn't Jesus the messiah.

Forget about that for the moment ... what was the Jewish Messiah in the Old Testament supposed to do for the Jews?

Urrmnn ... Wasn't he supposed to be a great leader like Moses. And lead them from oppression and vanquish their foreign oppressors?

And ...

What ... ?

So who was oppressing the Jews?

Life, the world, their lack of understanding for the world?

And?

And, what?

So when do you think the Old Testament was written?

Crikey ...

You have no idea do you.. ?

Not really, it is just kind of there. I think because it is subconsciously thought to have been your handy work, we kind of imagined it was always there .. !

You know … this is really hard work.

You think! … Imagine what it’s like for me. At least you have the advantage of being omnipresent!

Funny!

Thanks.

You're still sitting I hope?

Yup ...

Good, now stop congratulating yourself and answer the question.

What, you mean who was oppressing the Jews?

No, that follows. The question was, when was the Old testament written.

Well … there is lots of it ..

Sure is …

So it would have taken awhile … ?

…!!?

Do you think it would have been written by more than one person?

You kidding?

No ..

I am getting bored of this, you’re so brainwashed by all this nonsense you can’t see the wood from the tree’s …

Sor…

!! … The Old testament was written by a whole bunch of people over a period of centuries and then the stories as written were passed down to the authors via oral traditions ….

Oral traditions … ?

Yes. Many of these stories existed prior to the invention of alphabet, at least that used by the Israelites. So they were passed by word of mouth down from generation to generation, from mother to son, son to brother, to sister, to child.

Can you imagine how these stories survived over the generations via word of mouth only?

Urmmn ... tales around campfires.

Well, possibly. What do you think people did in an age of oppression, of constant strife, no TV, no Playstation, nor Video. There was no written word?

Tell tales .. ?

Yes. Just like humans still do. Except their stories were for the longest time told from memory.

What do you think the stories were about?

I suppose ... like you said. Of their past heroes, of god's will, how the good survive and I assume how one day god will provide a warrior to lead them to freedom again?

Well done my friend.

And do you suppose that in a time with no written word, people were better at remembering stories and retelling them word for word?

I guess not, they are human like us?

Exactly. So ...

The stories changed, became embellished, details altered, names changed?

Yes. And like Chinese whispers or Telephone, the story at the end, when it was written down would have been degrees different than the original. Not a conspiracy just a consequence of the medium.

Cool!

What's cool?

This ...

Mmnnn. So the Old Testament is the word of god?

Well technically it was inspired by their concepts of god but not actually god's word?

And the stories you read in the Old Testament word for word duplicates of the originals?

No ... I get that. It's amazing if you think about it, logical really.

Of course.

And then one day there was alphabet and people started writing down the stories .. ?

Yup! Best guess the Old Testament was written about 800-300 BC

What do you mean best guess?

Well it was along time ago, the finer details get a little fuzzy!

Fuzzy, but you're god!

You should try it sometimes, it bloody tough, you can’t even remember what you did 37 years ago so don’t come all high and mighty with me!

Point taken …

So who was oppressing the Jews?

What about 300 BC … ? Well wouldn’t that have been the Romans?

Nope, they didn’t turn up till about 60 years before Jesus ..

Cripes … so who was it?

Well, it’s kind of interesting. But not surprising when you look at the history of mankind as a whole ....

Why … ?

Well apart from feeling like every foreigner they came into contact with was oppressing them, the Israelites wasted much of their time fighting each other. Twelve tribes go to war and all that .. ?

Wow …

Which is why many of the old testament stories depict the plight of the Israel nation through legendary stories about one man?

Jesus?

Give me strength!

What … it wasn’t Jesus?

No it was David you lummox … as in David and Goliath!!

But I thought David killed a giant, that sounds improbable .. ?

Only if you think of the giant as a single being … try thinking of the giant as a larger nation, or tribe. And that the Israelites went to war and won against the larger nation! David might even have led them in that war. Does it sound more probable?

Wow .. !

It is debatable whether David actually existed. Many of the key stories about David are thought to be analogous to Israel as a nation, or parts of it at least.

I don't get it, one man as a nation?

Whether he existed or not, he soon became legendary. Can you think of one man that has become legendary, personifying the strength and accomplishment of your nation?

David Beckham .. ?

!!? … I suppose that’s a thought. But for this point we will probably go with St. George .. !

Oh .. right, of course.

Do you think he existed?

What St. George … not sure?

Do you think he was a slayer of Dragons?

Didn’t think Dragons existed?

So there is a possibility that this character that embodies the spirit of England is just that, a representation of a nation's spirit?

I guess?

And the same with your brothers the Scots, all those screaming painted faces rushing headlong across a field behind Braveheart: A normal man, made legendary as a personification of a nations spirit!

I think you're over estimating the sense of brotherhood between neighbouring nations. But you’re right, I hadn’t really thought about it like that!

Don’t suspect you did.

So you can see how David (not Beckham) might have become the personification of the Jewish spirit, their triumphs and ultimately their angst.

Sort of .. ?

Have you heard of Jason and the Argonauts?

Yes .. are they in the Bible as well?

No ... ! What do you know about Jason and his Argonauts?

Urmmn didn't they go on a long journey looking for the Golden Fleece.

Yes ... and is the story real?

Well no, it is a Greek myth .. isn't it.

Yes. Do you think Jason existed ?

Well I guess not ...

You are probably right. It is thought that the Jason story, like many of those in the Old Testament are a conglomeration of peoples adventures. In this case from stories accumulated by traders working along the Mediterranean coast line. But these stories are built around a common theme!

Theme?

Yes ... does this sound familiar?

What?

Well I haven't started yet ..

Sorry ...

Listen! .. Jason was the son of the real King of Iolcus but Pelpias usurped the throne and ordered all children heirs to be murdered. But the mother deceived Pelpias, hiding Jason in caves while mourning as if he had died. A centaur tutored Jason before he came of age and then he went on many adventures, that included great deeds, including on one occasion parting the rocks barring the way to an ocean!

... that sounds a little like the Moses story?

Yes ... and why do you think people think the Moses story to be real but not the Jason story?

I don't know ... ? Because we are told it is real and that Jason isn't?

Correct ... do you think the Moses stories are real?

Well ... it's a bit soon for me to say, this is all rather, like in your face!

Mmnnn.

So can you see how David might have come to symbolise Israel?

You mean that stories about Israel would over time come down to a single common denominator, and that was David?

Good .... what does it feel like to be enlightened?

You have enlightened me ... oh lord thank you!

No stupid ... I mean figuratively!

Oh ...

You really do have completely the wrong idea about me you know!

Do I?

Yes, you do. I can see we will need to address it soon, but not right now. I am growing weary again.

Sorry ... but I am not quite sure where we are heading with this ..

You have the attention span of an algae!!

Sorry …

Don't apologise!!

Okay ... you're kind of making that difficult though!

Enough! Let us continue ...

Right.

So we already have the hardship of life in ancient times, dating way before Jesus. And that this hardship was explained away as a test at the want of a god's will and the promise of hope through salvation ... ?

Yes …

And now we are trying to understand the concept of a messiah? I hope you can see how that might be important for our future discussions?

What you mean about Jesus?

Yes, about Jesus!

Right .. am back with you then.

Okay … so it was through stories written about men like Moses and David, that were ultimately idealized conglomerations of the plight endured by many people, their triumphs and failures. That the legend of the messiah came to be!

How come .. ?

Heaven help us!!

Sorry, carry on, just having a little trouble keeping up that's all …

No kidding!!

With all these stories – Of Moses, David, the great leaders of the Israelites and the warriors that had led them through the worst and best of times … the Jews fully expected and repeatedly prophesied that this warrior leader would return one day as their messiah.

Oh …

This messiah, the anointed one, who would once more lead them, unite the tribes of Israel from their own bloody conflicts, free them from foreign oppressors and to a better life in the future … it gave them the promise of HOPE!

Right … this all makes sense now. I think.

Glad to hear it.

But didn't they realise that Moses and David might not be real?

No! Don't you remember that whole bit about the stories changing through word of mouth over time?

Oh yes ...

Eventually these stories about David, that were conglomerations, handed down through generations would just be accepted as the truth.

Crikey ... yes, I get that!

And hope .. ?

The messiah?

Yes ....

... wasn’t Jesus the Messiah .. ?

You mean Jesus of Nazareth?

Well yes .. ?

I am just about all done in … tell you what, have a read of Isaiah and Psalms and if you get a chance the four gospels of the New Testament and we will talk about Jesus and his legacy next week … what do you think?

Well, I have a couple more questions?

Oh good. Quickly then ...

Well. Is that all there is to the Old testament?

What do you mean is that all there is?

What about Genesis, Noah, the prophets and all the other stuff in the Old Testament. Is it all about hardship, hope?

Look my friend. I am not going to tell you what to think about individual scriptures. You now have a context for how and why these stories were written, of their purpose. The rest is down to you!

But ... what do you think of them?

Me?

Yes? You don't seem to have much time for them? That they are a waste of time?

Do I now ... that is what you have come to think ... is it?

Urrmnnn ... that was the impression.

Well my little friend ... Do I believe the Old Testament is a history of all mankind, that it chronicles the one god and his chosen people and provides a template for us to lead a religious life? Of course not and I have no time for those that would.

So ... ?

The Old Testament is a work of magnificence, admittedly hard to get into, but worthwhile never the less. Where else will you find such detail on the thoughts and plight of a peoples so ancient, dating to almost 3000 years? It is glorious in its attempt to explain a hard world, and brilliant in its imaginative myths and mighty legends. Dangerous in its desire for obedience and faith. It is the chronicle of nations, their joys and laments and hopes. Nothing more.

Wow! That was stunning.

Thanks ... now are we done?

Okay … I really appreciate this you know … it has been really enlightening.

Funny. Now get to reading and don't stop that thinking … Psalms and Isaiah remember!

Yes god …

Till next time then …

Laters …

!!? …

Reviews

Written by origami.tree (21 comments posted) 10th July 2007
I thought this was pretty interesting and intelligent, and you managed to approach the subject in a way that was refreshing.  
But to be honest i found myself skimming rather than properly reading it because of its sheer length.. 
 
Condensing the story a little or being careful not to include unnecessary dialogue would solve this.. 
 
Otherwise i thought it was well written.
Hi Johnnie
Written by jean.day (2283 comments posted) 11th July 2007
I've read and enjoyed this. It is long, but I don't think if you are really into what the point of it is, that it is overly long. God is meant to get frustrated with the slowness of the ability of the character to catch on - and the explanations need to be in short sentences - rather than one big paragraph. I haven't found anything to object to on the regious front yet. I sort of hope the David's psalms were all written by one person - even if not him - as they have a similarity to them.  
 
Looking forward to part 3.

Written by Phil (6731 comments posted) 11th July 2007
Enjoyed this Johnie. Length was not a problem at all for me. 
 
Very interesting way to put across a point of view. Very interested to see how this will continue, but more so, end.  
 
Phil
thank God (or god)
Written by fellpony (1617 comments posted) 11th July 2007
for a story about god that doesn't make him visible (for a start). Oh how I would love him to turn up on a busy morning when I'm having one of those bible-is-the-word-of-god arguments with our local Jehovah's Witnesses. 
 
I liked the idea of the character discussing this with god himself - the obvious extension of Greek philosophical texts with the two (teacher and student) discussing concepts to show how they work or don't work.  
 
On a day when one of my German friends writes lamenting that a German politician wants creationism to be taught in BIOLOGY classes at school, this and your earlier piece have considerable value as LOGIC. Bravo Johnnie.

Written by Cindersarella (67 comments posted) 11th July 2007
Never thought I would find myself absorbed, let alone laughing reading a piece about the Old Testament - but I did. 
 
From an enterainment perspective I particuarly loved the banter between God and the mortal. God comes across as cool which somehow made it less of a daunting read. 
 
From an educational perspective I too have to confess to being enlightened. It was pitched just right - the format works well - short bursts of information at a digestible pace. 
 
Agree with Jean and Phil re the length - to try and cram it into fewer words wouldn't do it justice - plus you'd lose the essence of what makes this a great read

Written by Bottleblondesurfer (3362 comments posted) 11th July 2007
You have obviously put a tremendous amount of thought into this and managed to keep the polemic even handed and the ending was superb. 
 
I feel it would seem like carping to criticise it. It was certainly imformative and sporadically humourous. I would have liked more but that's just me. My interest waxed and waned a bit, some of the setting up was a bit lengthy and laboured. The bloke was a bit overly dense which I'm guessing was for our benefit for God to spell out the arguement. But you made your points cogently and with quiet authority.  
 
The obvous problem in this sort of Dialogue-with-God [and there does seem to be a lot of them on the site] is in giving God a voice and an attitude, it's almost certainly going to be an extension of yours but that is happily acceptible when it comes from someone as thoughful as yourself. If I had attempted this it would have been very different 
Well done 
Jane

Written by johniebg (541 comments posted) 11th July 2007
Many, many thanks for all the feedback. Getting positive comments from an 18yo that read a 4,000 word discussion on the Old Testament, that I wrote, filled me with a sense of accomplishment it is hard to define.  
 
Anyways ... glad people seem to be enjoying this. I am really looking forward to finishing the third part: what is god? and of course we couldn't finish without a dash of Jesus and a peppering of Islam ... 
 
Until then.

Written by Clifftown (620 comments posted) 19th July 2007
I've just read both of the 'Dear God' pieces, and highly entertaining they were too. As I read through this I "heard" Tom Baker and Martin Freeman doing the voices, which added to the entertainment value! I'm glad you didn't turn this into a fully-fledged comedy script; the style works so well as it is. 
 
Length wasn't an issue for me as the writing was so interesting. I liked the constant apologising and need for reassurance from "God" (this plus the "Crikey"'s gave it a very British feel). Some interesting theories and questions raised too. 
 
Part 3?

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